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Carlos Barria / Reuters
A Chinese People's Liberation Army soldier stands guard in front of 'Unit 61398,' a secretive Chinese military unit on the outskirts of Shanghai, on Tuesday. The unit is believed to be behind a series of hacking attacks, a U.S. computer security company said, prompting a strong denial by China and accusations that it was in fact the victim of U.S. hacking.
BEIJING -- China's military on Wednesday responded angrily to accusations by an American computer security company of systematic hacking of U.S. business and military interests, arguing it "lacked technical proof and was "not based on fact."
In a statement published on the Chinese Defense Ministry's website in response to the controversial report by Mandiant Corp., the military denied the charges, arguing the data was not enough to connect the hacking to them.
"The report, in only relying on linking IP address to reach a conclusion the hacking attacks originated from China, lacks technical proof," the ministry wrote in its statement, "Everyone knows that the use of usurped IP addresses to carry out hacking attacks happens on an almost daily basis."
The ministry also argued that there was no globally accepted definition of what constitutes hacking.
NBC's Kristen Welker has more on what the White House may be planning to do about foreign agencies hacking into U.S. trade secrets.
"There is still no internationally clear, unified definition of what consists of a 'hacking attack'. There is no legal evidence behind the report subjectively inducing that the everyday gathering of online (information) is online spying."
The Defense Ministry said that China itself is a frequent victim of hacking, a common theme in China's rebuttal of accusations of foul play in cyberspace. The ministry said it had tracked a "considerable number" of attacks against its networks that originated in the United States, but it noted that those intrusions had not been used "as a pretext to accuse the U.S. side [of hacking]."
The statement came a day after Mandiant released an explosive report, first detailed in a New York Times article, that tied a People's Liberation Army unit based in Shanghai to a prolonged and focused campaign of stealing corporate and defense trade secrets.
According to Mandiant, the Chinese hacking unit, believed to be "PLA Unit 61398," employed hundreds, perhaps even thousands, of operatives to raid secure American servers, extracting trade secrets, blueprints, pricing data and other valuable information.
In total, Unit 61398 was said to have pillaged hundreds of terabytes of information from 141 companies -- 115 of which were American -- representing 20 industries in a variety of fields including telecommunications and defense.
The hackers reportedly used techniques such as "spear-phishing" -- using spoof e-mails to trick users into granting access to internal servers -- demonstrating a strong proficiency in English and advanced understanding of computer security and network operations.
China pointed out that its Ministry of Public Security had assisted more than 50 countries and regions in investigating cybercrime cases and that the Beijing had entered into a number of bilateral law enforcement cooperation agreements with those countries to help combat hacking.
The Mandiant report and the media maelstrom around it prompted Chinese state media to lash out at the hacking accusations, though the Chinese-language version of the New York Times story was still blocked in China.
China's typically nationalistic newspaper, Global Times, said Beijing should be more vocal in exposing hacking attacks conducted against China.
"Some officials have been punished for internally reporting that government websites have been hacked and secrets leaked, but almost no details have come out," the paper wrote.
"The Americans really know how to talk this (issue) up. All China can do is concede defeat."
Related:
Report: Chinese army tied to widespread U.S. hacking
Congress urged to probe Chinese computer espionage
Leave a Comment:
I wish I were enough of a geek to understand if the Chinese response has any credibility.
Exactly, now the liar is, 'Angry.' And yet STILL HACKING.
Annie, all you need to know is we have what is in reality 13% unemployment, everything at the mall is plastic and made in China and if they cut off our money the US military can't buy high capacity magazines either. Almost feels like Obama is in bed with the Chinese too.
Annie,
While the reasoning the Chinese gave is credible, I believe the report also tracked down the names of 3 people, and even what building they were working in. Of course, since we don't have access to that information or any more details, we have to take that information as fact. But yes anyone can hide their IP address, and make it seem as if they are connecting from anywhere in the world. So what they are saying is that someone from some other place could be making it seem as if they are in China. I believe that is why in yesterday's report they stressed that they had names and a location. That was to preemptively erase China's likely response.
While the Chinese have been pulling this stuff for years now, we can't be completely sure who is telling the truth here.
One of the countries that has "most favored nation" trade status. We favor them so much they can steal blueprints, information and everything else and we do nothing about it. I'm surprised they didn't respond with "he who smelt it dealt it".
Annie, so you know, the Chinese response is VERY credible. Even when you watch the interview of the main person behind this report, he states that is conclusion is % based on IP tracking. What the Chinese say is that most hackers bounce off different IPs on purpose - so how can you claim that as your means of zero'ing in? The names they came up with was based on the fact a company in Shanghai near where they targeted the IP happened to be hiring people that "met" the criteria of who they "should" be hiring if they wanted to carry on cyber attacks - thats it.
Sometimes to browse I use an app to bounce off different IPs myself. Trust me, this report is worthless - and not fair to China.
A child always angrily denies having his hand stuck in the cookie jar
It seems the Chinese have posters here to defend them.
We know they have been stealing technology and development secrets for years.
Over 3000 attacks!
You can bet the report is correct.
Well there's mud on your face...
China says they don't hack because
Damn good thing too, because the CIA doesn't want a unified definition either.
One thing we all know is that China would do anything it can to destroy America completely.
Obama and his administration lies about everything and gets a pass. Why shouldn't the Chinese?
This type of vigilance is employed by and against friend and foe. Sometimes, as now, the propaganda gates open to reveal this ugly truth.
Its hard to find out anything when the parties continue to separate...I thought we were coming together after 9/11.
Let's start the cyber war against China, if Obama has the guts to counter attach China , he should do the same , diplomacy don't work.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a Peking duck!!
I am an architect from Washington State - not Chinese. I am answering the question since China is right - this report is loosely based.
The security company did their analysis, and turned that data over to the US government. Why did the US government release that info to the public? For what purpose?
Because we, in the US, would NEVER do anything like that. Riiiiiiiiiight.
I'm enough of a geek, in addition I'm ex-military and my work requires me to have a security clearance. I can say that the Chinese assertion that IPs are bounced is accurate, and I was suspicious of the conclusions this report puts forth when I first heard it.
Everybody in my industry knows that many hacks originate from inside China on a daily basis. What we still don't know is if they are 'state sponsored', so we usually go by the content of what the attack is seeking to steal. For instance, if it's military or government sites or secrets, then that could be the source of the attack, etc. In the cases illustrated in the report they are commercial, but their conclusion is it is state sponsored. That is not a typical connection to make and it seems based on the IP track back they used which is not reliable enough in my opinion.
Has anyone considered this could be an Iranian attack that is being bounced through the Chinese IPs?
Look who is boasting about cyber-warfare right now. If you put that together with the tech side of it and the need for revenge burning in the Iranians after stuxnet, it makes a plausible scenario.
Deb Richardson
"One thing we all know is that China would do anything it can to destroy America completely."
I don't know that. I think China wants the US to continue buying all the goods they produce to keep their economy growing. Why would they want to "destroy America completely." It's almost as if you posted with emotion only, not with thinking.
Sounds like Bill Clinton is writing their denial speech for them.
Every thing the Chinese say in their response MIGHT be valid, but that doesn't mean that it is. Irrespective of who is responsible for any given attack, the Chinese government has trained hacked and sanctioned their activities in the past, and it would be folly to assume that they are not still doing it. They can hide behind technical explanations all they want, but, make no mistake, they are using hackers to spy on us.
I do think, however, that this is mostly about the theft of information. Claims that they have any desire - much less the capability - to crash vital infrastructure in a life-threatening meaning - are hyperbolic. After all, their investments in our country are huge, we are their leading trading partner, and our survival and prosperity is every bit as important to them as it is to us, and vice versa. This is mostly about stealing our stuff and using it against us, and maybe denying service on systems that criticize them and expose their abuses (like the NY Times, no doubt). But just because they won't try to Internet to try to kill us, assuming that's even possible, doesn't mean we shouldn't be very concerned that they are doing this to us, and ignoring this type of thing shouldn't be an option.
It may be that we are already responding by hacking them.. I know we do it to the Russians and Iranians, regularly, so I presume we're also hacking Chinese systems all the time, but I still think that's the answer. Tit-for-tat. Our hackers are better than their's are and their systems are more vulnerable than ours. If they want to spy on us by hacking, we should hack them back worse. They'll tire of this game and cry uncle sooner or later.
Too bad our greedy US companies will do business with the devil. We created this monster(China) and we are going to pay a price for it.
Annie, It is basically easy for anyone to hide their ip address including ppl who use stolen credit or bank acct #'s on the internet. Your ip address tells roughly where the computer is that is sending or retrieving info.
With that said, any experienced hacker can follow the trail of false ip addresses until they find the source. and the U.S government, along with other governments or security firms can figure out the source of any attack.
The Chinese have been stealing our corporate secrets for years using these attacks.
"It seems the Chinese have posters here to defend them."
Hi Eric. I don't believe it is as much those people defending them, as it is not believing every shred of propaganda the U.S. government puts out for everyone. It's called agenda news.
To those of you who seriously are in doubt about whether the Chinese actually did this...the Chinese have a long history of stealing and denying. They have been pirating commercial vessels in the South China Seas for years, then reselling the goods they have stolen (even luxury cars!) and denying it. They are also mainly responsible for the manufacturing of a lot of black market luxury goods, as well as creating "third shifts" where they manufacture the goods stupid American manufacturers contract them for to recognize lower costs, and then selling this on the black market as well.
They are smart enough to know they can't take over the world militarily, so they are doing it economically...and since they don't have the creative capacity to innovate themselves, that entails stealing everything.
Anyone who's been to China knows it's the land of "if you can get away with it, do it," even more so than in the US (now THAT's saying something). I'd be more shocked to find they WEREN'T doing this.
Absolute rubish. Who do you think has been paying for their exponential growth over the last decade or two? The Chinese know. A lot of the Chinese people like parts of American culture, and even look up to us in some respects. But many also fear and mistrust us. Sound familiar?
biker4life & CaliforniaFirst ... Good post!
The Chinese might or might not have validity ... BUT I'm willing to gamble that we (our government) definitively knows that unit 61398 is involved in computer espionage through hacking.
Their reply is factual as far as it goes .. bouncing IP's is quite common ... BUT once you can narrow down the origin of transmission, you can pinpoint the general location. Thats really not so hard to do with a entity working from a fixed location .. ie not constantly on the move .. and constantly spoofing the MAC address of his equipment ..
But whats the big deal? ... The United States is using "Cyber Warfare" against its adversaries .. and spying on its own citizens ...
It's laughable to think that the US has a exclusive on the right to do so ... this will continue to escalate beyond the general public s comprehension .... It's the new form of "Economic Warfare" ... far more important and destructive than "boots on the ground" and "infrastructure destruction" to defeat a adversary ...
These reports point to one thing. We MUST do a better job at securing OUR servers. This means ALL servers, not just military and intelligence services! Come on, kids! We taught you better, you lazy USERS! (yes, I insulted the IT guys!) - Retired IT professor.
It's likely that people in the Government are doing this without the knowledge of the central government. Our FBI allows their employee's to moonlight for private corporations and they've been known to do these same type of things. Corporate espionage is wide spread and the right information is worth millions and sometimes billions. People in government and law enforcement are ideally place to commit cooperate espionage and if you've got the money they are more than willing. And when law enforcement investigates and the trail leads back to their own you know nobody is getting charged as long as the money gets spread around.
The Chinese are innocent and Obama loves America.
Now guess what both of those statements have in common.
Here's an excerpt from the NYT article:
"Mandiant is not the only private firm tracking Comment Crew. In 2011, Joe Stewart, a Dell SecureWorks researcher, was analyzing malware used in the RSA attack when he discovered that the attackers had used a hacker tool to mask their true location.
When he reverse-engineered the tool, he found that the vast majority of stolen data had been transferred to the same range of I.P. addresses that Mandiant later identified in Shanghai."
--------------------------
For those doubting the validity of the report do you really think I private security firm like this would be so naive as to not know that hackers can mask their true location? They've been gathering evidence for over six years:
--------------------------
"For more than six years, Mandiant tracked the actions of Comment Crew, so named for the attackers’ penchant for embedding hidden code or comments into Web pages. Based on the digital crumbs the group left behind — its attackers have been known to use the same malware, Web domains, Internet protocol addresses, hacking tools and techniques across attacks — Mandiant followed 141 attacks by the group, which it called “A.P.T. 1” for Advanced Persistent Threat 1.
“But those are only the ones we could easily identify,” said Mr. Mandia. Other security experts estimate that the group is responsible for thousands of attacks.
As Mandiant mapped the Internet protocol addresses and other bits of digital evidence, it all led back to the edges of Pudong district of Shanghai, right around the Unit 61398 headquarters. The group’s report, along with 3,000 addresses and other indicators that can be used to identify the source of attacks, concludes “the totality of the evidence” leads to the conclusion that “A.P.T. 1 is Unit 61398.”
You didn't really expect them to say - "Oh, yes we did it" did you? Well hell yes they will denie it. Every country is hacking into the U.S. system to study and see how far they can get into systems. Once a master plan is put together - wham-0 - we get hit with cyber terrossium wrecking havoc on oil gas pipelines, finanical institutions, military control of communications and who knows what else they will use to bring the U.S. to a stand still.
We are reaping what our government has sown. The Chinese Mainland has never been a good friend to the USA. Unless you've been living under a rock you know they have nuclear missiles pointed right at us and have been for 30 years. So how does our government respond to this, they give them the one thing they needed to become the worlds greatest super power. Money!! Along with jobs infrastructure, education, technology.
This should be proof of a one world government running things from behind the scenes. Who in their right mind would hand over our good paying blue collar jobs and destroy our remaining industry with cheap foreign products? All in the name of a global economy? They are destroying our country. Both the democratic and republican parties are run by the same entity. We are played like a ping pong ball, back and forth with nothing substantial getting resolved. This country of ours has moved in the same direction since the Assassination of John F. Kennedy and some of these rulers that weve had in the past took part in it.
Wake up America, they are not going to give our country back without an all out war. If we dont start it they will. Get yourself and your families prepared for it.
Out here in the Los Angeles area we had a submarine pull up along side our city and fire off a missile. To this day our government has refused to tell us what country did that, all they say it wasnt one of ours. Why didnt heads roll in the NSA CIA Homeland Security? The same reason Condo Leeza Rice wasnt fired after 9-11. After all she was the head of the NSA who is charged with the responsibility of making sure our country isnt attacked. She didnt get demoted, she was given the best job in Government, She was made Secretary of State for keeping her mouth shut.
Our Government cannot be trusted to safeguard our people. Do it yourself. When militia's rise up join one. They are the last line of defense for our country and by Constitution they have just as much power as the government.
Where are the watch dogs on this site,
wilsonarden should be banned already..
Keep angrily denying things, China. Keep messing with the little kids and you'll wake up the big boy. Maybe he will drop a Stuxnet on you to calm you down.
The only way this would be newsworthy is if China did NOT deny it.
The hit dog barks.
We teach them how to speak English and how to hack into computer systems, and they go home and do what we taught them.
The implication from these actions, like those of Iran, is that these are acts of war and we should react to them as such. I am not suggesting that we physically attack any nation, but we should stop doing business with them and definately start pounding the crap out of the through our own cyber attacks. Stop taking it in the shorts because we are afraid about loosing any influence with China...we never had any.
Hello folks, that's right, we should piss off our landlords, right? If we aren't careful they will foreclose on us!
The Chinese statements are 100% accurate and the U.S. Government and their security firm's statements are 100% bogus.
Any teenager is smart enough to download hacking tools that bounce you off several IP addresses around the world.
The 'hacked' site in the USA will only record the final IP address and that IP address can be in any country or any city or any specific street address from any place on planet earth. A hacker would NEVER hack you from their own IP address, but a hacker can easily spoof the final IP address so it appears the hack originated from a specific address.
The U.S. government has access main Internet hubs which are all located in the USA, but spoofed IP addresses and multiple IP bounces still make tracing the hack impossible.
I suspect the hacks probably originated from the Pentagon by their new counter cyber terror unit who are trying to flex their new powers and ensure the proposed $500 billion in automatic defense cuts do not happen!!!
The Military Industrial Complex does not want the proposed $500 billion in automatic defense cuts.
One thing you can be sure of here is that it is either the Chinese or someone attempting to make it look like it is the Chinese. Those guys in the middle east that love us so much know how to use computers too.
For all you arm chair IT professionals spouting nonesense about their understanding of hacking need to step back. There are definitive ways to tunnel back and determine the origin of an attack. Yes, as a hacker you can spoof other IP addresses and make the origin of attack look like one location. Any security forensic analyst can determine with the proper set of tools, time, skill set in hacking, where it came from. One fun method is allowing them to hack and steal dummy "sensitive" material, which in essence is its own counter-attack, or the stolen material is designed to report back to its host. All of this bs in the media, the back and forth between China and the US is just for show and propaganda.
John C_1. If you want us to not think your not Chinese then don't preface your post by saying your not Chinese. Only someone who was trying to hide the fact would say that. Duh!
Memo to President Obama and everyone else:
Remember WMD's in Iraq? This may turn out to be the same type of scare-mongering scam.
Check your facts. Check your fact checkers. Check again.
Cowboycjn: "cyber terrossium wrecking havoc"...priceless.
Don't really kid yourself by agreeing with comments from the self-styled "experts" in NV who will tell you all about IP addresses and "spoofing." 'Tain't so, McGee!
The situation is that the US National Security Agency owns every inch of the internet. Period. They have ultra-fast computers that monitor the internet worldwide. Access points for the NSA to snoop were built into the internet as it grew in populatity, functionality, and use. The NSA has the ability to screen every bit of data going over the internet, and even most governmental intranets. They can perform realtime decryption of most encrypted messages sloghtly delayed decryption of the rest. Mostly they screen for certain keywords, certain IP addresses, any spoofing, encryption of things that should not be encrypted, such as JPEGs, and most of all traffic eminating from certain physical addresses.
It is most likely that the Mandiant Report is comprised mostly of NSA intentional leaks that have been re-verified by Mandiant and added to by.
The report isn't entirely accurate in one implied area. In comparison to the United States, China, Russia, and Iran are all rank amateurs. The US followed in a distant second by Israel are the leaders. The reason is that China, Russia, and Iran lagged decades behind the US in internet development and resrticted access so severely that they will likely never catch up.
Annie, John C, the guy who is enough of a geek, and anyone interested:
customgpc is right.
Originating IP address can be tracked back. You guys may not be able to do it, but given time and equipment it can be done.
Oooooh K....
So why do I find in an "Who IS Database" IP Address search that an attempted Cyber Attack on my home computer originated from a site in Beijing ?
If you have a computer security program (such as Norton 360), it should tell you the attacking site's IP address. All you have to do is insert the address into the following:
The result of the search even provides a map to show the location of the attacking site.
These turkeys not only target military and industrial complexes, they TARGET YOU.
On a government to government basis? I would say "bull". Especially when the U.S. intelligence regarding the Internet is the first and most advanced in the world.
Someone can steal and "use" IP addresses, doesn't mean they will get info delivered to them at the stolen address.
I find the Chinese explanation a bit naive for Internet experts. And I know for a fact our U.S. government relies on security and firewall experts.
Iran angrily denies it's working on nukes. North Korea angrily denies it's working on arming missiles with nukes. China angrily denies it's guilty of cyber warfare. And what's Obama's response? Appeasement!
Not true at all. Iran....sanctions. North Korea....sanctions. China.....Obama will talk today about penalties for hacking internationally.
Obama has not appeased....that's old Romney campaign crap.
What would you have him do to China? They own more of this country than its own citizens, and they could "pull our plug" if they wanted altogether. Even if they were hacking (not saying they were), they probably just wanted to check on what they own to make sure its OK.
Where in building 61398 are you typing that........
In a small town in Anacortes, Washington - north of Seattle.
"lacked technical proof and was "not based on fact."
Means, As long as you can't specifically prove it, we will keep denying it. ~ Doesn't mean you are not correct in your accusations...
Why of course you would be typing that from the "left coast".
Let's be clear that everybody uses cyber-warfare, not just the Chinese. We've pretty openly trashed Iranian and Russian websites before.. even used cyber-warfare to undermine the Iranian nuclear program, thank goodness. Stuxnet is real and, from our perspective, a good thing. We would be idiots not to use any non-lethal tool of spycraft at our disposal, and we do.
The question here is not whether it is ethical for the Chinese to use cyber-warfare against us, it is what we're planning on doing about it to stop them.. or at least get them back. If they hack us, we need to hack them back worse.. and that's how we'll deter them from escalating in the future. Once they realize that we can hurt them worse than they can, they'll restrain themselves.. at least up to a point.
This'll also deter them from every trying to cyber-sabotage... mutual-assured destruction.
China's angry denial seems like the old biting dog defence.
"My dog doesn't bite. And second, my dog was tied up that night. And third, I don't believe you really got bit. And fourth, I don't have a dog.""
"North Korea angrily denies it's working on arming missiles with nukes." I think they might be over the denial part, now.
@gizmowiz- Well, tough guy, what would you do? Ask the walmart executives to talk to the Chinese? You sound like a blow-hard idiot.
@CaliforniaFirst: The current issue is not cyber-warfare by China, it is cyber espionage. They are stealing as much of our commercial and industrial intellectual property as they can get in order to advance their own commercial interests. Big difference from Stuxnet, which was launched to retard an unstable nation's quest for nuclear weapons.
John, you seem confused. China has been doing this for many years and has often been caught at it - as, now, they have been caught again. They've repeatedly stolen military secrets from contractors, and many other forms of so called Intellectual Property.
The problem is that US companies do NOT take computer security seriously. Security cannot be attained and thus "solved" by installing firewalls and anti-malware whether on the periphery or/and the endpoints and hoping to catch the intruders. First you need a dedicated crew doing the tedious work of pouring over logs. And even that won't do it. The security problem can only be (partially) solved by expensive, ongoing, and INCONVENIENT training for users. In those three adjectives you can see the crux of the problem.
Companies don't want to spend the money. They do not want ongoing, they want a one-off solution - but there is none. And most of all, the employees, including the top floor executives, don't like it, not one little bit. Nobody likes security training and just about everybody hates practicing computer security. And therefore, BTW, a certain amount of enforcement is required - which is hated even more than security training and secure practices.
And finally, historically, companies won't talk about and share info on the attack events. Why? Because they could lose trust and lose customers. Their stock price could take a hit. And, what's worse, in fact, what is worst of all, these things could have an impact on executive bonuses.
The same thing that causes most American problems causes this one. It's not just greed - everybody's greedy. It's negligence and criminality in support of greed.
gizmowiz
Do you even know the meaning of appeasement?
Well when you have a wide range of experts from different countries confirm that the cyber attacks are coming from China, specifically from 1 building in China and the Chinese government has a very locked down system, yet they claim they do not know of any hacking in that area it does bring in to question their credibility.
They know they are doing it. Why did they interrupt CNN stories on this to their public if they aren't doing it.
The "locked" down system in China is not as "locked" down as you think. I have to deal with this all the time with my clients in China, but the efforts they use to block websites is basic - and anyone with know-how can go around those blocks. In the end, the blocks end up hiding what some criminals do - but that doesnt mean its the China gov that is causing the hacking. The US has more hackers than China - and we hack China all the time too. People are being spun on this issue due to their lack of understanding.
Keep defending Chinese hacking.......I don't like it and we should fight back.
We are fighting back. You think we're not doing the same to them? Yes Virginia there is a Santa Claus and china and communism will be defeated. One Hacker at a time!!
You're kidding yourselves if you think you can "stop" hacking by simple retaliation. You think if you even drone-striked that building it would stop the hacking? You know how many people there are in China? Know how many of them know English and are going to school to learn computer science, AND are going into the military?
How about, for starters, disconnect our f'ing reactors from the internet? I mean Wally-the-reactor-core-manager won't be able to play online death-match scrabble during his break anymore, but at least our flipping enemies won't be able to remotely trigger the next Chernobyl. If they could still pull it off in the 50's, I'm pretty sure we could figure something out NOW.
We got them right where we want them. We just refuse to pay the interest on the loans...
So very true. You can't get blood out of a turnip.
China needs us more than we need them. Without us China ceases to exist. They hold about 8% of our debt. Cutting them off would hurt us but it would destroy them. Without us propping up their government, through a constant transfer of wealth, they would fall into civil war. "China" is a mishmash of countries and ethnic groups, many of which hate the ethnic Chinese.
I dont know where you get 8% - but is stands at 29% right now. China could destroy us in a single act of selling that debt for nothing...it would collapse the bond market and lower US bonds to junk status overnight.
It would be the end of the US economy, so show respect to your master. They have worked to get to this point while here in the US we fight over scraps.
@ oh please!
This is correct. We borrowed much $ and built the most sophisticated military on earth..
Do you all remember when Donald Trump (I think was late 80's), and his empire crashed when real estate values plummeted? He owed so much $ to banks that they were forced to sit down and negotiate with him because they couldn't afford to take the loss.
It's the same principle...and now look at Donald Trump (super rich, and still an @!$%#).
John C_1
Wow, total fail. China holds about 26% of our debt that is held by foreign governments, which is about 8% of our debt. You need to upgrade your skills.
"Oh, so's you don't wanna pay Jonny Quan his interest, huh? Dat's a shame. Dat's a reeeaal shame. What's say Ricky Chin here gets real clumsy with your power gid? Hey, Ricky. Shows 'em how yous don't know how to keep them reactors from overheatin'. Yeah. Ricky don't remember which is 'sewer' and which is 'water supply' either. Why don't yous tell him how 'dumb' he is for not remembrin'."
Would you prefer Giz we simultaneously invaded/bombed all three of those countries? We already have major sanctions on the first 2 and we have extensive trade relations with China. If you want to beat China at this its going to take embarrassing them/cyber attacking them right back.
I would prefer our government didn't use the last 30 years to drop our pants and bend us over the worlds park bench and take in in the @$$. I don't propose world domination in the name of oil and plastic goods. What I prefer is standing strong on principles and point out all of those countries suck because of their leadership and not my Ford F-150. This entire he said, she said is all smoke and mirrors to blame somebody else for our countries failure to remain solvement. Everything that is wrong with America today came out of Washington and wallstreet is taking the blame. And the scary thing is 51% of the country took the bait.
It sure is fortunate for me that I am among the 49%. I may have to live with the results, but I don't have to like it. When the sh*t hits the fan in less than two years (the next recession), the uneducated (51%) and delusional groveling masses will see the light. Then, I can look them straight in the eyes and say "Sure sux to be you."
ohplease - please try to learn something. Business runs the country and has since the mid sixties when the low-rent know-nothings decided to exercise their prejudices and vote republican. If you say our problems come from Washington, you are saying that our problems come from the private sector and since the ascendancy of the the financial sector over the last 30 years, yes, indeedy, my little ticklebrain, Wall Street is one of the top three or four causes of our current problems.
Happens on both sides!
We need to quit training the enemy Chinese in our colleges.
Stupidest post today.
@ Scott
Pretty funny, huh No way would we have any Chinese students getting an education in America. You've been listening to David Bowies "Hunky Dory" right?
China is all bluster and denial since they got caught. China would also not have any high tech industry at all if it weren't for the trade secrets their spies and hackers have gathered over the last 30 years.
.....and GE among others sold them.
Yeah, don't forget a large portion of that was gladly handed over to China, with training and documentation, by US companies, so they could get their widgets made without "greedy, labor-union-loving, healthcare-demanding, OSHA-overwatched" US workers dragging on their bottom line.
As the CEO of the company I worked for that eliminated 800 US jobs to send them to China said, "Communism is great for capitalism!"
The Chinese do not consider theft and hacking and stealing ideas a bad thing in society. If they can do it that way they will, no remorse. They have no shame at all when it comes to hacking and it's state sponsored.
Free lunch, everyday? A communist country stealing the best info possible out of THE capitalist country? how could it be?
When you KNOW someone is invading your servers, bait a trap with a virus and let them download it. Make it a very good virus, like Stuxnet.
When you KNOW someone is invading your servers, bait a trap with a virus and let them download it. Make it a very good virus, like Stuxnet.
Exactly what is being done as we speak. Peoples Republic of communism is on its way down.
But.. but they're our friend and trading partner!
Let's borrow money from them, sell them treasury bonds, and move more factories there!
If China can limit what is searched for by their citizens using Google, then I can't believe they didn't know about and condone or even support the hacking of U.S. infrastructure.
if they can assume the 9 dash line legal, how much more deny chinese hackers as theirs?
they will do even steal your basketball shirt with your name attached to it if they want and ask you if you`re the only one who can acquire a shirt for basketball
What the heck are you talking about?
I'm waiting for the other jackboot to drop. When will we read the story about the 12-story building in downtown San Francisco full of American NSA personnel who spend their days hacking petabytes of data from the digital corpus of mainland China ?
The aforementioned NSA is building a giant complex near American Fork, Utah whose chore it will be to tap, funnel, archive, and analyze to the extent possible virtually every form of electronic communication on the planet ---all of it ---- gathered from all manner of sources visible and dark; civilian commercial military and Other. It eclipses all other data centers on the planet . Existing American covert telecom data sumps are evolving; growing .
Whatever you think or believe about whatever China is doing to snoop on the US of A, I feel sure we are w a-a-a-a-a-y out ahead of them in doing the same , since 1949 at least. My concerns about geopolitical cyberwar actually lie as much or more in Eastern Europe or Russia due to the manner in which the world got wired in the last 30 years , and the fact that the former Warsaw Pact countries have instilled some very clever and competent software engineers who are " highly motivated" these days.
While American kids play somebody else's computer games and get fat , Eastern Euro kids learn to write code and do cyber-gymnastics. We may have already lost the war...
Why not blame Bush like MSNBC still likes to do?
Because it was Billybob Clinton who began selling our secrets to the Chinese.
Goes all the waaaay back to Trick Dick Nixon!
true that. a Fact that back in 1990 the Chinese we building only bicycles , then comes IN Mr Clitoris ooops we are screwed :)
Wasn't it Bush who said I'm a free trader. Every thing in the that US companies don't give away in the name of free trade, wind up being free for clandestine plunder by outside sources because US companies keep sticking their head in the sand on security in the name of more profits.
@ dinosau - They say dino's have brains the size of walnuts. In your case, that sounds like flattery.
No, it doesn't. It sounds really good - much like a politician's response to any question. But at the end of the day, if you look closely at the words, a lot of them have been spoken, but nothing has been said.
But there is a real simple way to deal with the Chinese - unplug them for 24 hours. They like to censor and filter and control, let's see how they like it does back to them - jack them out of the 'net, just as should be done will all terrorist nations (aka The Middle East), and give them 24 hours to confess or they stay disconnected.
Unplug them from the internet? Can you imagine what would happen? They might pick up a book! They might go outside and actually physically accomplish something! Oh, the horror! (Sarcasm Alert~Sarcasm Alert)
China says they are not guilty because they dispute what the definition of "is" is. They thought hacking just meant chopping something or someone up, and they haven't been caught red-handed doing that recently.
Yeah right ......This is just some US Government conspiracy to justify going to war with CHINA. Because that's what we want ......a war with CHINA !! That will work out well for everyone involved. Just think of all the jobs created cleaning up a nuclear wasteland. Oh wait ....there won't be anyone left. Never mind....
Why not the World is ripe for a WW3. This generation wants to see blood and they are going to get to what they ask for...The USA is so divided a civil war can pop any day...
"a civil war could pop up any day" ....Is that right ? Please tell me how this"civil war" will just "pop up"
Oh please, do tell about this "civil war".
How many people were killed last election? How many injured? How many riots were started as a result of the election results? Property damage estimates?
I eagerly await your response.
Oh heck if i was the USA i would send one nuke bomb over and say someone hacked our system...Maybe they will get the picture?
Stop buying thier cheap products, bring the jobs home where they belong, and cut the overseas computer lines....
Okay, raise your hands if you thought China would just go, "Oops, you caught us, so sorry!". Yeah, not going to ever happen...ever.
Lair, Lair, pants made in China is on fire.
Joe-1858653 Lair, Lair, pants made in China is on fire.
And the fire extinguisher to put the fire out was made in china too.
Not only is the Chinese Government into hacking but they are also consummate lyres.
Hey Bob, don't you mean "liars"? I don't think they are stringed musical instruments.
I wish I had a consummate lyre. The one I have is made in China and sounds like crap.
Time to stop over spending, Eliminate the debt and then tell China where to go.. Wake up America, pretty soon China will be dictating to us what we can and cannot do in this country.
You know that's not how bonds work, right?
No matter how much money we borrow from them, they will never, ever, be able to make laws or seize private assets in America. It is literally impossible. Nations do not have indentured servitude.