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Carlos Barria / Reuters
A general view of 'Unit 61398,' a secretive Chinese military unit on the outskirts of Shanghai on Feb. 19. The unit is believed to be behind a series of hacking attacks, a U.S. computer security company said, prompting a strong denial by China and accusations that it was in fact the victim of U.S. hacking.
BEIJING – A group of hackers linked to the Chinese military has stolen reams of sensitive data from more than 100 prominent American companies and organizations, according to an explosive new report.
“The details we have analyzed during hundreds of investigations convince us that the groups conducting these activities are based primarily in China and that the Chinese Government is aware of them,” U.S. computer-security firm Mandiant Corp. said in a 74-page report released on Tuesday.
The story was first reported by The New York Times.
One group originating from China that Mandiant had been tracking since 2006 and identified in the study as “APT1” allegedly swiped data from 141 companies in 20 industries ranging from aerospace to telecommunications, according to the report. More than 110 of those companies were American, according to Mandiant.
Mandiant said that the data suggests that the hacker group was either working for or sponsored by China’s People’s Liberation Army. Indeed, according to the organization’s information, APT1’s activity originated from a People’s Liberation Army cyberware division known as “Unit 61398.”
“Our research found that People’s Liberation Army (PLA’s) Unit 61398 is similar to APT1 in its mission, capabilities, and resources,” it said, according to the report. “PLA Unit 61398 is also located in precisely the same area from which APT1 activity appears to originate.”
Mandiant said that the hacking originated from a drab 12-story office building on the outskirts of Shanghai. Hundreds, maybe even thousands, of operatives performed covert corporate espionage and extracted trade secrets, blueprints, pricing data and other corporate information from countless American servers from the innocuous tower, according to Mandiant.
The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times reported on Thursday that Chinese hackers repeatedly penetrated their computer systems. NBC's Pete Williams reports.
The hackers used techniques like “spear-phishing” -- using spoof emails to trick users into granting access to internal servers --demonstrating a strong proficiency in the English language and advanced understanding of computer security and network operations, the organization said.
Media blackout
Though the story exploded on Twitter and in the foreign news media, it has hardly made any waves in China. Twitter has long been blocked in the country and foreign media companies that broadcast on the mainland like CNN were blacked out when the report was mentioned on air.
Coverage of Mandiant’s report was also absent from Chinese news websites, but some discussion of the report could still be found on China’s Twitter-like service, Weibo.
“Chinese hackers are so capable! I always thought Americans are very powerful!” exclaimed one user.
“Reports by foreign media cannot be fully trusted,” warned another user, “but there must be something.”
Related: Wall Street Journal infiltrated by Chinese hackers
This was a sentiment partly shared by China’s Foreign Ministry spokesman, Hong Lei, who responded today to questions about the hacking report by calling them “groundless” and reiterating the government’s unwavering position on the matter.
“To make groundless accusations based on some rough material is neither responsible nor professional,” he said, before noting that China was also the victim of hacking attacks.
Hong also argued that the new evidence provided by Mandiant and the New York Times will not withstand closer scrutiny.
But China’s cyber activities have been under increasingly closer scrutiny in recent weeks, as a slew of news stories have come out about Beijing’s reported hacking ambitions. Last month, the New York Times reported that its own servers had been attacked by hackers originating in China, possibly in response to an embarrassing expose it published showing the hidden riches of out-going Chinese premier, Wen Jiabao.
While the White House has largely remained silent on the hacking issue -- President Barack Obama mentioned hacking in his State of the Union but did not specifically cite China -- the government has been noticeably increasing efforts to strengthen cyber security.
Last week Obama issued an Executive Order calling for the improving of critical infrastructure tied to cyber security. That the move came on the eve of the publication of two similar exposes -- last week Bloomberg printed another story demonstrating PLA hacking of American systems -- suggests the administration could be taking a long called for tougher stance on Chinese hacking by “naming and shaming” known mainland hacking groups.
NBC News' Le Li contributed to this report.
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Big brother getting snooped on by other brother ?
If only Underdog was here. Hate to be the bearer of bad news but the co-creator died Friday, hats off. Simon Bar Sinister, Cad, Riff Raff and No Long Dong would be toast. GM to the usual suspects and good luck.
Of course if Iran did that we would be bombing them already... instead, we allow China to continue flooding our country witch cheap goods that have ruined our economy...
These traitors in Washington DC need to be lobotomized and sent to China for well deserved retirement.
China has been at war with the US since at least 1950. These acts of war are just the latest manifestation of their aim to replace us as the major world power. It really isn't Communism behind it, it's "China-ism."
Apparently China's winning the war as most of our jobs have gone there while we buy their cheap junk
I bet all the people complaining about china destroying this country and selling us cheap junk has a house full of items made in China, including the computer they're typing on. Talk a lot of crap but can't turn down a good deal can you guy?
@New Gawker - that is total BS. Most people have ZERO choice these days. This choice is taken away by the buyers for US stores, who make much higher profit margins on the goods made in China. You and me, the consumers, can only buy what they carry. And I look for made in America items all the time. I did not set the trade policies - the corrupt US politicians did that, because they have sold out to international capital holders, who don't give a flying f...k about American jobs.
@Stonepipe: "No Long Dong"? Why not? Did he have a run-in with Lorena Bobbit? :-). I did enjoy "Underdog" as a kid.
Yeah. China: They are the preferred trading partner of the US. Well, I look at where something is made before I buy it. If I can find the same item that is made in the US, even at a higher price, I will buy it. China is my very last choice for goods, as is Taiwan, Hong Kong, and all of those other countries that manufacture "cheap" goods.
China holds much of the US debt. If our politicians keep selling our debt to China, pretty soon they are going to call it in. What will be that debt be paid with?
New Gawker - of course you can't get away from made in china, not easy to find anything with the lable made in the USA anymore, but why don't we just send the same virus we used on Iran?
EEK; the debt will most likely be paid with the rest of our freedom! Sad.
Sure, we'd all love to blame China for this but they are just taking advantage of stupidity. Sensitive data should not be on computers that are connected to the internet. If you leave your keys in your car and someone steals it, sure, they are a theif, but you did something STUPID.
I find it sad and disappointing that other countries or terrorist want to destroy our way of life,our country, kill all of us white,black or other and all i read on these blogs is who you think is to blame,we all are to blame by not working together regardless of if we like each other,again their are people that want to kill all of us,we are in the greatest country on the earth even if we are misslead by politicians or crooks posing as such,it may come a time when we may have to defend our freedom from those that want to destroy us,will any of you have my back if we have to fight in the streets? i hope so cause i would have yours if it means our kids will be free,divided we fall but we all fall,one love
Sounds like our own governments cyber-terrorism agencies are falling flat on their faces when it comes to China. This should have been caught and dealt with quite a while ago!
Hey Newgawker- take a look at the pc you're typing your own drivel on there guy- made in... where? Look at your shirt, shoes, toaster, etc. and made where?
Post a lot of crap but can't turn down a good deal can you guy?
This is not new, Chinese are expert hackers , they start 3 decades ago , introducing industrial espionage, that allowed to get important information at a cheap price, this is how they develop their automobile industry for example , now they move to more sophisticated ways infiltrate into American secret with cyber espionage. If we did not stop China back them, we will be able to do it now, I don't think so
We should be very concerned. This country is so far in debt to China. I wonder when they will come to try and take what they feel is theirs. Our wonderfull president also has talked about giving a list of every gun owner to the United Nations. There can only be one use for this to any other country. If our pres. does this he should be immediatly tried for treason for giving away a vital military defense secret. Now do you see why our gun rights should NEVER be infringed upon. To arms, to arms the chinese are coming!
WAAAAY off topic, Ed C.-6173773! My opinion on the "debt" to China is that legal proceedings should be commenced in a world forum in order to obtain damages for the theft of patented, copyrighted and other privileged data due to Chinese hacking and that these damages should be used to offset the so-called debt to China. They have been tossing us crumbs while they steal our true wealth!
S Williams..Not so far off. Why is it their MILITARY doing the hacking?
Redvirginia - they didnt have to steal anything to develop their auto industry - we sent our manufacturing over there, you see - when you teach someone how to build a car, guess what they now know how to do...you guessed it, BUILD A CAR.
same goes for just about everything else we've sent over there.
as for the espionage - we do exactly what China is doing.
it's hard to call foul on it, when we do it to every nation on this planet (and dont doubt that for a second).
As for the debt - we've been in debt to China ever since we opened up trade with them.
I think a lot of people are looking at the purchased debt that china has - which is a lot. but the trade deficit, thats just as important - and something most people dont comprehend. but it can be called just as easily as monetary debt.
and yes, China will follow in our footsteps - they will invade, occupy and take control of the US if they ever wish to.
and of course, if we fought them as invdividuals - we'd be terrorists. ya know, just like those muslims in iraq and afghanistan we call terrorists for dare trying to evict the occupiers, us.
I believe most people would call this KARMA, TURNABOUT IS FAIR PLAY, DO UNTO OTHERS...
some pretty basic rules of life. we reap what we sow.
The Chinese have been engaged in an economic war with the US since the 80s.
The problem for the US is that they won the economic war. We owe the Chinese a lot of money, to put it mildly.
The US politicians sold out the American people with trade agreements that favor China, which only accelerated the demise of US industry. Why pay a US worker a living wage when you can pay a Chinese worker slave wages? Who needs those silly environmental controls anyway?
The US does not understand the Chinese at all. The Chinese do not send armies or the navy to fight a war. They send businessmen. It is a much more effective policy.
The US can look forward to the demise of the dollar as the default currency and look forward to international exchanges in Yuans.
As soon as the US looks at the World as a level playing field these problems will simply go away. The US is the only country that insists upon occupying other countries in the new millennium. The 20th century - the US Century - was a century of war, war, and more war. Hopefully the 21st century will be a century of peace and prosperity. Only a fool would expect the 21st century to be dominated by the US.
The US looks upon itself as the "World Policeman" when in fact the US would appear to the casual observer to be a retarded bully. Weapons, weapons, and more weapons is the US answer to every problem. Meanwhile the Chinese are investing in infrastructure. Infrastructure is the foundation for economic growth. Money spent on weapons and meaningless wars stifles economic growth.
The US sold its soul to the Devil when Truman made the decision to proceed with the atomic bomb when it was no longer necessary. Now it is payback time. It is not going to be a pleasant experience.
We stick our noses into the world's business. Why should we be surprised when they do it to us?
Wow you better stop using actual history (rather than make it up on the spot). A constructive conversation might actually happen on Newsvine. The US has killed scores in Asia in the last century. They're more than just a little wary of us for good reason.
Jessica terrorist in Meedle East do not fight for the freedom from US invaders, they simply are extremist intolerant radicals that do notaccept our way of life, our religion, our culture , their are also intolerant among them. Terrorist attacks between Sunnis and Shiites is part of their live, so tell me who is the occupier, the Sunnis or the Shiites.
Ed C, Were you as outraged over the Bush White House outing CIA covert operative Valerie Plame? That fit the description of treason in every way, and DID cause the deaths of many of her contacts in the Middle East. Scooter Libby was handed over as a deal, then his 30 month prison sentence was commuted by George W Bush, his boss. How convenient. The Lamestream Press, as Fox News likes to identify network journalists, did little to bring this assault on the American people to light.
The Dem party will probably turn to the chinese army when it comes time to totally disarm Americans.
JOHN BRYANT.....yes but there isn't enough room on this page to list all that our government does that gets me pissed off
Oh China, how silly they can be trying to deny what the entire world already knows, and has known for years. Obviously, they like to sponsor hackers to aim at the United States. You know, I'm pretty sure if we ever felt a need to start a cyber war with them, we would win. Now I'll be the first to say I find it amusing that this many people seriously think China is out to get us. But as far as their hacking goes, they have been doing this for years. They may not be out to get us, but they are trying to get every advantage they can against us, as they see us as the biggest rival.
Still, I highly doubt China is "out to get us" like so many here believe. China is simply going through their version of an industrial revolution, but faster because much of the technology already exists. They have come to realize that their long enacted policy of isolation no longer works. China is evolving from Communism to more of a Capitalistic based country under Authoritarian type rule, and even that is changing by the day. I don't know what China will eventually turn into, but much of what they do that we criticize them for has already been done by European countries and/or the United States during their/our respective industrial revolutions. The single biggest difference, besides the part of the world they are in, is the Communist based government that has been driving all this for China. But again, China is becoming something else.
Sure, we don't always get along. Yes, we often clash over things. And yes, they do send hackers our way because while they aren't out to get us, they do see us as an economic rival and certainly like to mess with us. But they would have nothing to gain from threatening us on that level. While they may do shady things, and may economically be trying to manipulate the economy to their favor, who else isn't? Besides, the truth of the matter is that it is in China's best interest to keep us around. We are still an extremely important country for the world economy. And more importantly, we owe them money. A lot of money. China is making a killing off of us, and you can thank our esteemed leaders in Washington for that. So really, why would they want to destroy us?
With this hacking stuff, and the recent spats with the Japanese over territorial issues, it looks like China is being demonized.
It's difficult to imagine that the Chinese couldn't mask their activities better than this. Surely the Chinese could have rented a server in Sweden and done their hacking from that server. So either the Chinese are incredibly stupid hackers -- which I seriously doubt. Or someone from another country, perhaps even the USA, hacked into the USA FROM a computer they'd hacked into in China.
For computer novices, this is similar to call forwarding....where person A calls person B, B forwards the call to C, C forwards it to D. The caller ID will tell person D that the call is coming from person C -- not person A.
As an IT person myself, I can tell you that there is very little to limit the number of 'hops' this could take. A foreign spy could hop through a dozen different machines -- each located in a dozen (or more) different cities -- before finally connecting to the intended target machine. You'd have to walk it back through each hop, analyzing the log files in each country, before finally seeing the IP address of the offending foreign spy.
In short, I really doubt the Chinese are doing this -- especially in such a sloppy manner.
Please stop the with "sky is falling" mantra already. The Chinese hold about the same about of US debt as Japan, and much less than is held domestically. Secondly, US debt isn't callable. If they want to be paid early, all they can do it sell it on the open market.
@EEK,
China cannot "call in" the American debt that it is holding. It is in the form of bonds with a quarterly interest payment. As long as the interest is paid, the bonds remain valid. Only the issuer of the bond (the US Treasury) can retire it.
The only other way the Chinese can divest themselves of the bonds is to sell them on the open market. As long as the bonds are solid, there is essentially no one that can buy even a significant portion of them.
So this means that it is in the Chinese interest for the American economy to be strong and not falter. If the US economy ever got to the point that it could not make the interest payments, the bomds held by China would drop into "junk bond" status. This would crash the Chinese economy into a serious depression (along with the rest of the world.)
It makes it sound like a dumb thing for the Chinese to hold American debt when every politician on the right is whining that the country is bankrupt and the national debt needs to be fixed. The Chinese see it differently. They see a government that owns, free and clear, around $188 trilion in "stuff" --- roads, buildings, aircraft carriers, national parks, etc. About $90+ trillion of that is, or can be made, liquid. Against that they only owe a paltry $16 trillion. The Chinese see us as a rich man who lives in a great mansion with several cars, but is complaining that his credit card debt is killing him when he only has to sell one of his cars to pay off the debt. It would be a lot better is more people saw America as the Chinese see it in this regard.
Now all you sheeple better run right out to Wal-Mart and make some purchases of cheap Chinese junk so you can help out your new overlords. Let me see hear, how much has our super intelligent US Government barrowed from china? Oh that,s right, you can't calculate that amount because it's still going on AND THE AMOUNT IS CLIMBING SO FAST YOU CAN'T CALCULATE THAT FAST, BUT YOU SURE BETTER NOT TELL THE GOVERNMENT TO MAKE ANY SPENDING CUTS !! WAKE UP AMERICA.
The Chinese have just taken a page out of Obama's "How to Blame" book. Always, always blame it on the opposition.
@dr821 - who appears to be so totally brave behind a anonymous identity - As comic book guy would say - Lamest post ever!.
As for the topic at hand. We should hit the Chinese in kind, and where it hurts. Put our efforts into supplying the means and technology for the people of China to subvert and bypass the great firewall of China. They will sure scream bloody murder and we can do exactly what they are doing. Deny having any involvement.
international nothing, try "American" execs and CEOs, many of whom are thrilled to dump American jobs for slave labor.
Why do we do business with the criminal organization that is the Chinese Communist Party? Our leaders have sold us out for pennies on the dollar.
Yes, a little yellow brother who thinks in terms of centuries and has a long term goal, while the greedy, short sighted bigger brother thinks only of consumption and next quarter's profits.
Who will win?
I think Carney the Kid ough to condemn this "in the strongest possible terms" - Yeah that'll scare them!
Hopefull,y China will not recruit Iran to be their version of an Israel, i.e. a Middle Eastern country that is willing to do things they don't want to be seen doing
@Ronals: China wouldn't dare treat Iran like we treat Israel - I think China would be much more loyal to Iran than Owebama is to Israel.
@ Chris and Barry
Thanks for the economics lesson. Glad to hear that the Chinese cannot simply show up on our doorstep and make monetary demands.
I think that many here in the US are uncomfortable with how much of our debt is held by other countries. Perhaps because the average citizen cannot run up debt and then ask for a higher ceiling like a country can. I wonder just how far it can go before it does crash. Lots of other people have that some worry. My idea of a balanced budget means I can still put money in the bank after paying my bills.
@Chris-749391,
Very well said as you usually do.
@David Mason-7777331,
David, I would give your post 1000 votes if I could. Your comment just took over (or at least tied) for first place as my all time favorite.
David of course I would have your back and the rest of my American brothers and sisters. I would hope (though sometimes our posts seem otherwise) that when the rubber meets the road we would pull together as one people. Regardless of religion, politics, race, gender or any other truly unimportant nonsense that normally (and sadly) divides us as a people.
Regards and Best Wishes,
Brandon
@Ronald Hussein Reagan,
"Hopefull,y China will not recruit Iran to be their version of an Israel, i.e. a Middle Eastern country that is willing to do things they don't want to be seen doing."
Ummmm.............TO LATE. Who do you think is China's Proxy fighters? China and Russia will back them (and others) at the UN or anywhere for that matter to hold us to a stalemate or worse.
"other country or terrorist attacking our way of life" LMAO another ignorant victim of the Republican war propaganda machine. they don't give a crap about your way of life dummy.
but let me tell you what they give a crap about.
your country invaded their neighbor and ally North Korea during the country's civil war and also invaded their border, threatening to invade the USSR and using nuclear weapon on them.
20 millions people who died in South East Asia because of your inhumane foreign policies.
your country to this day still continues to bomb innocent women and children in the Middle East for oil and backs Israel, a state that is illegally taking lands from the Palestinians using deadly military force.
you are welcome for the education you have received.
Realist - Thank you for once again corroborating the second rule of the internet i.e. A poster will always post something that is exacdtly the opposite of what their name implies. Instead of making a posting grounded in any commonly acccepted reality you declaim about" Owebama" not being amenable to working with Israel. Nothing to back it up - just puking out what you've beeen programmed to puke. Have a nice hate, amigo.
and Obama took that page from Bush, remember for eight years how everything was "Clinton's fault"?
sounds like markl323, is either chinese or a NK stooge
why? because I spoke the truths? the rest of the world knows the U.S.A stands for the United States of ASSH0LES and you are one of them.
just wake up markl? time to get back to hacking?
hows the chinese hacking business ?
chinese hackers=bunch of stinking thieves
north korean government= bunch of lying, thieving thugs beating on helpless citizens and starving them to death
and your English stinks
the south Koreans are sure happy we AND the UN helped them beat back the communist aggressors of North Korea.
just look how well the South Koreans live, and how horrible the lives of the North Koreans are.
too bad the NK government is too scared to tell their people the truth, they know the people would have the "dear leader's" head chopped off and planted on a pole as a warning to any future lying thugs.
Mark
One person's truth is another's fantasy and it sounds like you live in a hate filled fantasy world! The one that needs to wake up is you! It is obvious that you are probably not American. Please tell us what Utopian fantasy country you are from, if you have the guts to do so that is, which I seriously doubt!
GM Tex Warren, ouch!
oh i see that lower form of life "iamconfused" is still making funny noises in the background, re-enforcing the stereotype Ignorant & Stupid Americans.
Ed-NavDoc, what did I say that wasn't true? Just because the typical Americans are dumb and easily manipulated, doesn't mean the rest of the world doesn't know what's going on.
how about:
first, there were more than six countries involved in the UN defense from the attack by north korea
second, neither the US nor the UN invaded China
third, General Macarthur did want to attack China, BECAUSE CHINA ATTACKED THE UN and AMERICAN FORCES and asked to use nukes against China, he WAS RELIEVED OF COMMAND (he was FIRED) for demanding to do so. why was Macarthur fired? because the US did NOT want a nuclear war with Russia, who was Chinas ally.
you have been educated
Mark
Iseeconfusedpeople pretty much answered what I was going to before me. Mark, the one who is obviously dumb and manipulated is you! Try reading some real history books for a change and you might learns something but I doubt it. Despite what was stated above, people like you are incapable of being properly educated! Good luck with your hate mongering. You will need it. I have nothing further to say to the likes of you!
Why bother hacking? They own us. They just needed to request keys to the building and could have sat down at the terminal of the very computers they were trying to hack.
I could not agree more. In August of 2012 the SC department of Revenue was hacked. Anyone who had filed tax returns in SC back to 1996 was hacked. They have all our SS numbers, bank account information and all. We had to spend 2 days freezing our accounts, getting new credit cards and putting a freeze on our credit reports with all three bureaus. SUCKS, now the DOR is being sued over this. GOOD they should have had some better system so this would not have happened.
Sad but true:( Our leaders have sold us out. The US has borrowed some much money from China that we'll never be able to repay. Our leaders are now borrowing more money from China to make payments on the money already borrowed from Chain. I don't know how our leaders handle their personal finances, but I've never used one credit card to make a payment on another credit card. It won't be long before our country will be called "China owned US".
You are so correct, they own us. But what do we do,,, keep borrowing more money from them. We spend like crazy and in the process are giving China more "keys" to our nation. Soon China will be able to just walk in and take over. Very scary what we are doing. Washington doesn't seem to care.
Stink- that was my exact thought!
You say US leaders but don't forget the corporate masters that control the leaders. They are as much to blame and more anti-American that Al Qaeda and Hitler put together.
Lol we may owe them money but please do tell how they "own" us. How are they going to enforce their ownership of us? Remember that bloated defense budget, well guess what it finally has a use.
They do own us, and will literally in the next 20 years.
I predict:
They'll buy our national parks and public lands from our soon to be bankrupt government.
They'll buy GM.
They'll buy our interstate system from our soon to be bankrupt government.
They'll continue to buy US tech companies, that were taxpayer supported, for pennies on the dollar which will save them many years of catch up time.
Oh, heck. They'll buy everything they can from our government so that it can cover entitlements.
Tax cuts for the wealthy, everyone!
I'm presuming we are hacking the sh1t out of them as well. If not, let's get started right away.
I'm also certain that we have a computer virus readily available that would wipe out all of their computers, but of course it would be like declaring war if we used it...
@ Chris Wanker
No more declaring war than trying to hack our computers.
We wont do anything about it, this administration doesnt stand up for america. We continue to let other nations walk all over us, we let them have unfair trade agreements and we have been feeding China technology since Clinton opened our dooors for them.
This all started before Clinton, China gained most favored nation status under Reagan, and extended under Bush Sr. You have a lot to learn.
@ Gary
The reason President Obama won't do anything...
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/1235804/1/.html
Communists don't fight Communists.
Unless there was some confusion, they became aware of these activities in 2006...remind me, was Obama president in 2006?
Get off it you dicks, NO ONE has done anything about China in over 30 years. This is NOT a "which president" is responsible issue. This is a which big business is in bed with China issue. Look at how many companies in the US import Chinese goods, I bought some towels at Sears last year, I just noticed they were manufactured in China. SEARS for Gods sake.
The US government has been tolerating this crap from them since hostilities paused in Korea, and we almost improved our situation with them when Nixon made some trade agreements in the 1970s. Until Big Business no longer has interests in China, there will be no change with things like this.
As if this is really new news....we/they been hacking each other for years, doesn't matter our pos potus's have us in debt to our eyeballs to the chinks....and yeah i have a bunch of junk from china....helps fill the landfills.
Coyote, as usual your post will be deleted. Idiot.
Sabot, If you think China is actually communist then you should take another look. They are more greedy and capitalistic than we are. And last time I checked President Obama hasn't tried to eliminate private property and move us all into government-run communes. I think we are safe from the communist threat the history has proven never really existed in the first place. But go ahead and base your beliefs on 1950s propaganda if it suits your needs.
Gary, get away from revisionist history. Reagan opened that door. Actually it was way back when Nixon was in office that the groundwork was laid.
Sabot - in a word you are WRONG. FOr example my favorite incidence of COmmie on Commie violence was the war North Vietnam started with CHina as soon as the U.S. had alll its trooops out of the area. I believe the war was largely fought in Cambodia and paved the way for Pol Pot to do his nastinesss. THe DOminio THEory, you see, was correct.
It's just that Kissinger, Nixon, Johnson. Kennedy. Eisenhower didn't know dominoes can fall in one of two directions.. hah! Seriously, I'm glad I didn't risk my life in that abortion of a war. C-frigfgin'O
So I wonder if anybody has read Tom Clancy's new Book... Threat Vector. Its uncanny how this story comes out two months after the release of the book, and how the news repot is almost just like the story in regards to people, and places.
There is no doubt to what might be happining to the US. After reading I have read, but then again you cant believe everything. In most cases you might get half the truth if you are lucky... We are only told what we want to hear..
IT would be shocking if they weren't.
The Chinese are pretty smart and I assume they know that a war with the US would destroy the world as we both have a boatload of nukes/ viral weapons and it would be safe to assume if we were losing we would use them. They will be more subtle in their push to gain dominance using economics and locking up resources around the world. I say who really cares as the US could run its own economy just within our borders with our own population just get rid of the "robber barons" and lobbyists.
Thank God we have Obama to wow the Chinese.
Curious that you say that because a record number of US jobs fled to China under Bush but are slowing returning now.
And while Bush borrowed money from the CHinese to start two wars and give tax breaks to the rich, Obama has actually reduced the deficit by 30% from where BUsh left it.
YOu should read more.
Someone just got pwnd
Obama has reduced nothing, neither has Congress.
Where can I get some of whatever you're smoking? This is the most ridiculous post I've seen in a long time.
I'd ask you to back it up with facts but since there aren't any and you just made up things, guess it would be a waste of time.
I'd suggest you look it up but I know you won't so here's a link: http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals
I'm presuming I don't have to walk you through it but tell me if you need help.
OldTimeDemocrat
Funny.. Republicans are the ones who support tax credits for corporations that MOVE AMERICAN jobs to China. OH my bad... we are not supposed to know that.
The jobs are slowly moving back here because our desperate workers are taking large pay cuts to get those jobs while Chinese workers are starting to demand higher wages and the high cost of oil has caused shipping costs to go up. It's economics at play here and not due to politics or politicians.
Funny how the dem and reps are both destroying this country...That is the fact!
Obama reduced the deficit? Haha!
Someone must have been watching the White House spin during the inauguration.
------
You jokers who keep blaming the economy on Bush should reflect on the entire point of the World Trade Center attack on 9/11. It was to strike at the heart of our strength...financial power. It worked.
Corporations started sending jobs overseas long before Bush ever took office. Thanks Union!
@ Paragus
We still vote these guys in...so if the ship goes down, we have no one to blame but ourselves.
That is a fact.
Obama has reduced [insert anything here - deficits, debt, wars] by 30%!?
You are insane. The only President to ever reduce anything in the last 80 years was Clinton (a dem) working with a republican controlled congress. Every other one of them has increased our debt. Obama too.
Mark Thomas-371822
Are you smoking crack mark? YOU need to read more, Obama has more then doubled the debt from when Bush was in office, we are not returning jobs here from China, Obamas lies during the SOTU make me laugh, look up the numbers, since he took office there are 650K less manufacturing jobs here, we were at 7 trillion under Bush and now are at 17 trillion, how is that redeucing the debt? And as for borrowing from China, that really started during Clinton, you lefties try to make it sound like he was so great and he had a "surplus" but under his administration we tripled our foreign debt, mostly to China, and lets not forget him giving away a ton of technology to them. So maybe you should read more since your facts are something you just made up.
Actually, both democrats and republicans are guilty of giving tax credits to big businesses. Some big businesses donated to President Obamas campaign because they know once a politician accepts the money the business expects something in return. That's why you see some big corporations not paying any federal taxes and that hasnt changed under the current administration. A certain corporation that supported President Obama just recently announced that they are closing a plant (cant remember where it is, I think Ohio maybe) that makes xray machines and are moving it to China. That corporation's ceo was also the President's "jobs czar". Information is easy nowadays to find with the internet so you can easily find out who gave how much to which politicians. It seems like we like to blame one party or the other but the truth is that both parties are guilty and until people open their eyes to it it's going to continue to be business as usual and nothing will ever change. And if you look at the rankings on how our kids do in the math and sciences it's pretty pathetic. That's why we import doctors and engineers from other countries. The teachers unions have a strangle hold on our education system, teachers get tenure after only 2 years and it's nearly impossible to fire them, and our kids are getting shafted. Look up "Waiting for Superman". It's an eye opener. Dont get me wrong, I think most teachers do a good job but something needs to be done about our failing education system.
@paragus,
"Funny how the dem and reps are both destroying this country...That is the fact!"
There is a whole lot of truth to your statement.
@SabotAndHeat,
"We still vote these guys in...so if the ship goes down, we have no one to blame but ourselves.
That is a fact."
Sadly there is even more truth to yours :(
Votes for both of you.
Regards,
Brandon
@Mark. It's pretty good that you can put a link to a spreadsheet prepared by the Obama Administration White House! Yeah, we all believe EVERYTHING (NOTHING) that comes out of Obama's mouth!
I was in China last year and the Chinese workers are demanding more moeny. The company I was contracted with is starting to move jobs back to the States because of this. Too many quality issues to warrant the higher wages. I also do work with companies that were sending work to Mexico and they have also started bringing work back to the States for the same reason. They are figuring out that you get what you pay for.
The Chinese advantage of strict governmental control, low wages and easy access to technology already developed by others makes it easy for them to rise dramatically in a short period of time. Japan made a big jump as well many years ago. Look what happened to Japan. Similar days of reckoning are ahead for the Chinese. In the meantime, exercise your personal prerogative, when possible, and buy American.
And for you couch lumps that like to blame Obama for the deficit, well then, start voting for the responsible thing, higher taxes and an equal share from the wealthy that use the economic system paved by all of us.
I haven't read an accurate post in this string yet.
Obama hasn't really improved anything, but it has been more than 80% the doing of the TEA/PUBS. Every time a proposal has hit the president's desk, he has conceded most of it, with the exception of the tax increase for the ultra wealthy. The TEA/PUBS have walked away blaming Obama EVERY time. We would NOT be in the situation we are in, if the tax margin was closed at some point since last February, when the first budget vote was returned to Congress for action. We still have not passed a budget, and it is NOT the POTUS fault.
No. I suggest some spreadsheet comprehension classes.
I read your source, which is prepared by the current administration. The budget deficit Tripled when Obama came in to office. Then you say he has dropped the deficit by 30%. He has not. He lowered the enhanced deficit that he created by a grand total of 6%. His estimated deficit by 2017 is $612 billion. Bush left it at $458 billion. Please explain how you come up with your theory of deficit reduction.
Either way, our POTUS's are not doing a very spectacular job.
@ Military Man, you make a good point. The sad truth is that it really doesn't matter who's in or out because they're each equally impudent. Each professes to have the magic and then can't perform and without a doubt each ends up out spending the other. The two party system is a well entrenched failed experiment. Whereas, they equally work to promote the parties political agenda, which is for the most part is bent in the interest of the party and not the people.
The federal government is over bloated and has steadfastly become too powerful. It has steadfastly made in roads to usurping the constitution; primarily regarding the 10th Amendment, starting with the enactment of the Interstate Commerce Act of 1887.
No doubt this is all over what the guys at ESPN called Jeremy Lin.
China has the bots to do it -- and the will and the cash.
America cannot afford a modern hacking network, spent it all on tanks'
Like taking a knife (creampuff) to a gunfight.
But I would think we have a far greater ability. We pretty much invented hacking, you'd think we'd be the best at it.
OldTimeDemocrat: You need to move on and get a life. Or better yet, just go away
Sensitive data should not be on computers that CAN be hacked. Those computers need to be disconnected from the internet. That is the only solution in a world of competing corporations and nations.
After 9/11 Our Government took all the very excellent cyber crime people from the FBI and moved them to Homeland Security. Another brillant move...
Get ready Taiwan, when mainland Communist China says it is time to enslave you, Obama will let it happen.
Old - The problem is that you believe the garbage you are spewing.
Grandpa,
I believe him, not you.
Notso Logical - So you are easily led.
Old fart white guy grandpa, short on smarts and facts...just like McCain.
Yep, China will take Taiwan without a single shot or force mobilization.
They'll just announce it, and the US will have to just accept it.
Old news....................this has been happening for the last decade...........
can we put this one in the "no sh*t sherlock" file?
if it was not for corporate America selling us out and moving ever job to China ,things wouldn't be like this.China dose not respect us ,and will do any thing to hurt us.China has be hacking the USA for over 15 years.
Nobody respects an international bully who walks around with other people blood 'up to it's kiester.'
Any questions?
Cutoff ALL Chinese imports and watch as their economy collapses.
'Fool!'
@TruthComesHere,
"Cutoff ALL Chinese imports and watch as their economy collapses."
The problem is our economies are so far intertwined that doing what you suggest would hurt us as well. Not to mention major shortages of common goods that we either don't produce at all or manufacture in quantities so low that there would be no way to meet demand. Even the Bunn coffee pot is only assembled in the United States. Want to bet that some of the parts are made in China? Also see REEs below

I'm with you in spirit though and gave you a vote just for that reason
Totals 2012 Exports: 110,590.1 Imports: 425,643.6 Balance: -315,053.5

NOTE: All figures are in millions of U.S. dollars on a nominal basis, not seasonally adjusted unless otherwise specified.Details may not equal totals due to rounding.
Source: h-ttp://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html
"The concentration of production of rare earth elements (REEs) outside the United States raises theimportant issue of supply vulnerability. REEs are used for new energy technologies and nationalsecurity applications. Is the United States vulnerable to supply disruptions of REEs? Are theseelements essential to U.S. national security and economic well-being?
There are 17 rare earth elements (REEs), 15 within the chemical group called lanthanides, plusyttrium and scandium. The lanthanides consist of the following: lanthanum, cerium,praseodymium, neodymium, promethium, samarium, europium, gadolinium, terbium,dysprosium, holmium, erbium, thulium, ytterbium, and lutetium. Rare earths are moderatelyabundant in the earth's crust, some even more abundant than copper, lead, gold, and platinum.
While more abundant than many other minerals, REEs are not concentrated enough to make themeasily exploitable economically. The United States was once self-reliant in domestically producedREEs, but over the past 15 years has become 100% reliant on imports, primarily from China,because of lower-cost operations.
There is currently some new rare earth mine production in the United States at Molycorp'sMountain Pass mine."
Source: w-ww.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/R41347.pdf· PDF file
Regards,
Brandon
BTW- Before any talk of racism occurs MY Father is 1st generation American-Chinese and my paternal Grandma & Grandpa immigrated here. I'm half American-Chinese (Always American FIRST) Also I have some family on the mainland that are involved with REE's as well as less problematic stuff.
Very true, insightful, and enlightening Brandon; thanks!
One real problem here is an overall lack of defined and/or consequential ethics. There is nothing what so ever to prevent China from taking advantage of what is easily manipulated into their hands. They like us are seeking to profit from their international interations. Tariffs are an effective tool; but like Brandon pointed out, China has us over a barrel when it comes to attaining rare earth elements. Tariffs artificially raise the cost of their imports; something that must be done to make manufacturing the same products here a viable alternative. Doing this is also inflationary, which is something our federal reserve has been struggling to avoid.
China is an interesting dilemma; whereas, the government plays a significant roll in making business successfully happen. Here in the United States the exact opposite occurs; whereas, business plays a significant roll, via political lobbying, which produces the tax base that makes government successfully happen.
Let's face it, we're just miffed because our government isn't hacking any useful information for us.
You have to be a real dummy to take your company and invest in China. China owns the land your factory is on. China owns the buildings your company is in. China owns the equipment you bought and put in your factory. If you leave anytime China owns it all! Dumb Americans...
It may be a global economy but foolish would be allowing the Chinese to gain even more power economically. Our country and its economy is on the decline for many reasons and whether we stop Chinese imports or not will not stop the decline. Hurting the Chinese monetarily would be the best option since we are their largest consumer. They steal our technology in many ways and then use it against us anyway. Sure, things will be a bit tougher for us but "man" up it is survivable. At some point we will wish we had manufacturing plants here. In the case of a war we would not be able to ramp up as we did in WWII that would be even more devastating than a little (or large if you prefer) trade war with the Chinese.
This has been going on since the late 1990's. The most irritating thing about it is how CNN and NBC have, for years, been soooo carefully avoiding any meaningful coverage. Wouldn't want to upset the Chinese overlords, now, would we. The Chinese basically cheat at everything that involves international affairs. Remember that the next time you buy a product stamped "made in China". with stolen US technology, and slave labor.
China government doing this, it can't be, they never lie! Don't suppose we could missle strike them. :)
It is a simple matter to cut China off the internet. Censor the entire country.
That, if doable and practical, would only take care of China. Then they would open an office somewhere else and get back to work. It is the computers with the sensitive data that need to be off the internet. That would prevent intrusions from anywhere.
I have to agree with you, Joe S.-761084. The thing about hackers is they are busy 24/7, 365. And they never seem to tire! And it's a big reason that I do not do any of my personal business over the internet. If I want to buy something over the internet, I go buy a VISA gift certificate at Albertson's, bring it right home and use it up within a day or 3. I don't do any banking over the internet, either.
I prefer abducting and dismembering myself. Let's see how well they can hack without fingers. A strong message of "You steal our data, we steal your limbs" makes a much better point.
You cut off our limbs....we call our loans..................catch22
Maureen: If they call in our loans, the Fed would just print more confetti making it even more obviously worthless.
@Indigo-Rage,
"I prefer abducting and dismembering myself"
Why how positively Radically Fundamental Islamic Jihadist of you................. ;)-LOL
Okay what gives?
Either somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed or you appear to have had an Extreme(ist) Makeover (Conversion) since we last chatted.
Remember "Just Say NO To MO" (and his merry little band of Maniacal Minions)!!!
Regards,
Brandon
@Maureen-3703305,
"You cut off our limbs....we call our loans..................catch22"
They call in their loans and we just refuse to pay and tell them to: "Sh!t in their hats and pull it down over their ears".
@2Fast : Fed up with hackers, their scam-and-fecal-ware, and yeah, having one of those days.
And yep, let them call-due, and see how long it takes for them to get paid.
I'm getting a kick out of this #16 conversation:) Yes, the Fed is good at confetti. And the Chinese could flood the market with our bonds, driving down their value. I think they may have tried that once, and saw that they would get hurt too. Everybody is between a rock and a hard place.
Personally, I recognize that I have very little power over international affairs. But I do have control over one thing--my own pocketbook. So I vote with my pocketbook and buy US made whenever possible, Fair Trade international next, and then China/et.al. last and only if I have to for something essential. And I support my local economy to the best of my ability, including getting something used at a 2nd hand store or garage sale (doesn't matter where it originated from, since it's already here)
@Indigo-Rage,
"Fed up with hackers, their scam-and-fecal-ware" - I hear ya and I agree also
" and yeah, having one of those days." - I hope it gets better for you as for one I consider you to be one of the Good Guys. Even though we don't agree on everything.
BTW - I hope that you recognized my attempt at ummm, errr, (shall we say) "Sharia Humour" and at least made you smile a bit ;)
Regards,
Brandon
I hope that you can have a beer or 2 at the end of the day and relax. We all hate days like you are having.
Now the question must be raised as to whether there will be pressure put on companies to secure their own networks against hacking, or whether the liberties of individuals will be put at risk under the pretense of monitoring computers and networks for hacking activities.
Robert, you are correct. A free society that respects human life, rights and liberties is, in some ways, at a disadvantage when dealing with a society that does not have such values.
So what do we do? Abandon ourliberties and our principles in an attempt to preserve them? Hang on and hope the Chinese people will rise up? They tried that in 1989 and they were crushed.
The only thing I can think of is to stop lending them our strength. We are selling them the rope they will hang us wth. We must ALL, at individual, corporate, and government levels, stop valuing money more than our freedom. Do you have any other ideas?
At what point does a highly-sophisticated cyber attack by a foreign nation against American national national security interests rise to the level where it requires a military response?
Personally, Jack H., the fact that some company's security is so lax that is allows hackers to get in doesn't piss me off enough to put my sons and daughters in harm's way.
A server got hacked because someone opened the wrong email??!! And now our precious 'National Security' is at risk?
Who's kidding who?
It would be if the "company" were Alabama Power and the site was the nuclear power plant near Dothan, AL.
I bet you'd change your tune then.
A nuclear power plant can be hacked by opening an email? Sorry, I don't believe it can be that easy. Keep the email server away from anything important, dis-allow personal emails, and install a dynamic aggressive email filter.
Uh oh.
Chinese Government gets caught with its pants down, and its little tiny wong hanging out.
At least they are getting more sophiscticated.
In the old days, they would have run the offending reporters over with a tank.
Sounds like a good time for a drone test.
SF DAD-3436720
Obama is already testing the drones, on U.S. He is more scared of U.S. than China.
This will be another one of Obama's brainless actions.
Instead of getting tough he will appease the Chinese and they will continue their cyber warfare unchecked.
And then he will lie about the attacks decreasing as proof his actions bore fruit.
Yeah Obama just like your $6 trillion actions bore fruit--to destroy the future for our children.
Can you read? The article says they've been tracking since 2006.
He's a republican ...he cannot read! Cut funding on the schools you know.
This is so easy to solve! Outsource the cyber security to the Chinese. All of our other jobs have gone to them, why not this one as well? All of our major manufacturing jobs have gone over seas. The major companies foolishly allowed their trade secrets to be copied in the rush for short term profits. What is left? Even Boeing has out sourced manufacturing their center wing structures to the Japs. Give it another 10 years and Boeing will be a basket case like General Motors. Our astute business leaders and politicians have screwed this country.
Hail to the Chief!!
One of the drawbacks of a free enterprise system.
Anything you post Mark Thomas is pure Bullshiite.
Start to out source cyber security to china?? This may already have been done thru the H1B program. And have you taken a look at the ethnic enrollment at our major universities. There is a lot of students going to our schools that have come from the Far East and will go back to their home countries once we have trained them. There is one program in the Computer related area at Cornell that has a 75% enrollment that is Chinese nationals.
Don't be silly, R.Allen.
Everybody knows you move manufacturing to China. Computer services are outsourced to India!
Sheesh!
r. allan take your meds!
The US (((hacks))) the Chinese military networks ad nasaum.
US warships in the Tiawan straits use electronics that (((suck))) up millions of Chinese electronic messages as they pass by.
Quitcherbitching AmeriKKKa!
AmeriKKKa? That's so last century. So is thinking that Tibet-destroying, abortion-forcing China is a bastion of freedom and tolerance.
Companies need to stop putting their sensitive data on computers with outside access.
*dingdingdingdingding*! 100% correct! If you have a computer connected to the internet in any way, it is NOT secure, and cannot be made completely so.
Congratulations Rachel! You have provided the correct answer! You have won a first class ticket to say "I told you so" to American politicians and corporate bigwigs when the American economy collapses and the U.S. military is neutralized by the communist Chinese Peoples Liberation Army!
Tell us what else she wins, whiplash!
The Unites States government continues to sit on its fat, lying, corrupt ass and let china do anything and everything they want to steal anything and everything from the USA, and our corrupt bought and paid for congress just sits by and collects their graft money from china for letting them continue to do this.
The US congress could care less about the security of the USA, the only thing these worthless dirt bags care about is getting their crooked asses re-elected.
this is true Jim, but we elect these a**holes, some of these politicians have been there for decades. americans should take responsibility for there actions. watch what happens when these politicians come up for reelection. we will elect them right back in. research what these people stand for, dont just take there world for it. look the character of your politician and not the color of his or her skin. americans are much to blame. take responsibility!
So why are we dumb enough to re elect them to their jobs?? are we the sheep following the bell.??