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Subscribe to RSSEarly readings of North Korea's nuclear test Monday show it was three to six times more powerful than any tests from that country before. President Obama is calling it "a highly provocative act." NBC's Jim Miklaszewski reports.
News analysis
SEOUL, South Korea — As North Korea's biggest political ally and benefactor, China would appear to hold all the cards when it comes to reining in Kim Jong Un's regime.
However, its response to Pyongyang's latest nuclear test was rather muted Tuesday.
Beijing's foreign minister summoned North Korea's ambassador for a dressing down and sternly expressed "strong dissatisfaction and firm opposition" to the test.
As a permanent member of the UN Security Council, Beijing will also join in a meeting set for later this week to discuss how best to respond to the nuclear test. But it remains unclear if Beijing will support tougher new sanctions, or that any new round of UN sanctions or resolutions will have much impact on the reclusive nation's actions.
Since the 1950-1953 Korean War, North Korea has been subjected to an array of multinational and unilateral sanctions by the international community. The country's leaders have responded to the isolation by focusing even more intently on developing sophisticated weapons and rocket programs that have simultaneously infuriated regional neighbors and drawn them to the negotiating table.
White House: North Korea nuclear test 'highly provocative'
Many regional observers have suggested that international sanctions are doomed to failure as long as Beijing continues to prop up and sustain its neighbor through aid and investment.
Chinatopix via AP
North Korean soldiers stand guard on the river bank of the North Korean town of Sinuiju, opposite the Chinese border city of Dandong on Tuesday.
Indeed, over the years China has staunchly supported North Korea on the international field, arguing that individual countries have the right to develop rocket programs that were scientific in nature and helping to derail stiffer sanctions against North Korea by the UN.
Last month's surprise announcement that China had joined in with the rest of the UN Security Council in condemning North Korea's latest rocket test seemed to represent a shift in its way of engaging with its neighbor, and long-time Communist comrade. However, it later emerged that China had worked hard to block any new sanctions.
The Associated Press noted:
Despite being the North's biggest source of aid and diplomatic support, Beijing has been reluctant to back more severe measures that could destabilize the North's hardline regime, which serves as a buffer between China and democratic South Korea backed by U.S. forces.
In the weeks leading up to Tuesday's nuclear test, it has been widely reported that China had been working behind the scenes with North Korea to halt the test and suspend their nuclear program.
Officially, China's Foreign Ministry has maintained steady support for North Korea by lamely calling for peace on the Korean peninsula and greater engagement by all parties.
Ambassador Susan Rice tells reporters at the United Nations that North Korea's latest, "highly-provocative" and "regrettable" act of testing a nuclear weapon "directly violates" security council resolution and threatens international peace, "vowing a swift, credible and strong response."
But in China's state-run media, the frustration towards North Korea has become obvious.
A strongly worded opinion piece last week in the typically nationalistic Chinese newspaper, Global Times, called on China's ruling Communist Party to take a tougher stance on North Korea provocations.
"If North Korea insists on a third nuclear test despite attempts to dissuade it, it must pay a heavy price," the paper said, effectively calling for an end to Chinese economic aid to the struggling country as punishment.
The Global Times certainly does not reflect official Chinese policy; state censors tend to give greater latitude to papers like the Global Times, using such media as a spigot from which to turn nationalist sentiment on and off while also gauging popular opinion. But it could indicate the direction China may be prepared to go to ensure stability on its borders.
Although tougher economic sanctions backed by China might cause Kim and his generals to reconsider their drive for more sophisticated nuclear devices, the move could also alienate Pyongyang and create a nuclear-armed rival on its doorstep.
Ed Jones / AFP-Getty Images
A North Korean flag flies above the North Korean Embassy in Beijing on Tuesday.
It is for this reason — and the fact that China's leadership transition is not yet complete, with Xi Jinping still not formally president until June —that Beijing's reaction to North Korea transgressions will likely remain subdued.
It appears likely that China will join the Security Council this week in condemning the North Koreans for this nuclear test, but it remains unclear which way Beijing will fall on stronger sanctions.
Their decision could finally shed some light on the opaque political calculus that Beijing uses in dealing with its wayward old ally North Korea.
Related:
North Korea propaganda video shows US city in flames
China state media: N. Korea would pay 'heavy price' for nuclear test
Leave a Comment:
China is playing both ends against the middle... and the rest of the world as fools.
A nuclear NK is actually their preference because they can still control NK but then SK, Japan and the US feel the heat without China appearing too involved.
The Chinese government and their idea of sanctions has become useless. The time has come to remove China from the U.N. Security council.
Just slide South Korea some nukes under the table. They would take care of it.
I can't imagine China is seriously scared of NK, even if it did implode and create a human rights catastrophe. Do they really think NK would launch an attack on them no matter how dire things get? NK would have nothing to gain by doing so except to open up another front.
And I can't believe they really feel the need for a buffer with SK, even if we do have troops stationed there. Besides, getting rid of NK negates the need for US troops in the first place. NK has always been the excuse to position ourselves at China's doorstep.
China's attitude is puzzling.
I would take every computer hacker we have and take over one of their rockets and make sure it hits China so they think the North Korea is mad at them. Then China wouldn't trust them
Some of you must be about 4 years old. Also, why would you secretly give anybody nukes, they are useless unless everyone knows you have them. Computer hackers, this isn't marvel comics, please you are a waste of oxygen
Yes, say what you will about the Chinese, but they are masters at very long term strategy, think 10, 20, 50 years. We as a country cannot see past the next electoral cycle, if that. While we sit here hating each other over ethnicity and accumulating nearly all our resources in the hands of but a few, China rises as the supreme superpower of the 21st Century.
Like the old Peter Sellers movie, "The Mouse That Roared"
Are we to seriously believe the dragon is afraid of the mouse?
Agree, also China probably fears regime collapse in NK because it could lead to U.S. troops on its border and/or a humanitarian crisis with hundreds of thousands of NK refugees streaming into Manchuria.
It's unlikely that China will ever get really tough with NK, making this a very difficult issue. A preemptive attack on NK risks a war with China, and we're too dependent on China to risk that (which is another issue). Perhaps a partial solution is to announce that since China is NK's enabler, any attack on the U.S. by NK will be regarded as an attack by China. No guarantees, but that might make China think twice about arming a mad dictator with nukes.
DM57 it could happen---The United States used U.S.-Israeli spy software to hack into the French presidential office earlier this year,
What bothers me in this is No one has looked at the possiblity of HOW MUCH MONEY/GOLD Iran world pay for a working Nuclear bomb with delivery system... Middle east glows for 100,000 years.
NK gets Lots of GOLD... Builds and sells more.
I Think "Team America: World Police" sums up the typical response from the UN regarding N. Korea.
"We will be very very angry with you, and we will write you a letter telling you how angry we are!"
The UN Security council isn't going to do anything. Not anything effective anyway. Ooohhhh.... more sanctions.... as if N. Korea gives a sh!t what the UN thinks. The only hope that sanctions will have any affect is if China cuts ties with them.
Unless China participates in sanctions, the only options seem to be go to war to stop NK from developing deploy-able nuclear weapons or sit back and deal with N. Korea's BS. Either way, the outcome is probably going to be very bad for everyone.
lets put up a joint navy blockade of N. Korea, enforce a no fly zone and force China to stop supplying them. Perhaps pass a resolution that enforces sanctions on any country that gives anything to NK... including China... mostly China.
The Chinese are chicken-@!$%#s with no backbone. All saber rattling and no action.
By the way, that is nothing new about them.
@Shipwrecked #1.15: Very much agree. Basically, China is a Chicken sh^t regime. Always have been. They claim to wish to join the brotherhood of civilized nations, yet they support, and indeed prop up such a pissy and backward place as North Korea. The area, and the world duly notes their cowardice.
Funny how all this comes out when we are thinking of cutting back on defense spending.
Yeah, we should render ourselves helpless as soon as possible so the world will love us.
NK is very useful to China. Inside China, they can point to NK and say your leaders here in China are positively geniuses compared to them, so be thankful.
That said, NK some day will be on verge of collapse and might invade SK. China might very well then declare a police action and just flood into Korea and take over the whole thing North and South.
As I've watched the UN's responses to situations over the years, I increasingly question their actual relevance....they've waved their fingers so many times as people have committed mass genocide and nuclear tests, there should be world peace at this point forever...
And I personally think China enjoyed the detonation, I think they encouraged it. Outwardly, they are condemning it, but internally, they are sitting back, interlacing their fingers, and smiling.
North Korea would not have nuclear capability were it not for China. How ridiculous to think that China would then in any way discourage N. Korea from testing such weapons.
Ever notice how nuclear proliferation/disarmament topic is strangly similar to the US gun control issue? Think about it:
The US is actively working to eliminate our nuclear stockpiles (to look good to the international community), while rogue nations illegally develop their own arms and stockpiles. Also in the US our Congress and President are actively working to eliminate our legally owned private arms, while criminals are actively getting/using them illegally. Neither the rogue nations or the criminals are concerned with what is the law(international or national), regulations(trafficing and transfer), and neither cares very much when someone else decides to "punish them" with new penalties or laws.
Funny thing, the UN and internationalists are at the core of both issues too. The UN is trying to get the international small arms treaty enacted, controls the IAEA, and often decrees that the US is bad while letting North Korea, China, Iran, etc. go about their merry way. All while accepting US funds for everything they want and attempting to limit the US' power. The President and Congress want to enact new weapons bans, control the BATFE, etc. and often decree that legal gun owners are bad while not admitting that criminals are just going on their merry way violating existing US gun laws. All while accepting US taxpayer dollars for everything they want and limiting the rights of US citizens.
Funny how that works.
Most people understand the game china is playing here ... but funnily US government officially doesn't recognize this. What are they afraid of? China indeed is the one that is supporting not just north korea but pakistan as well as Iran. How else do you believe either of those countries are developing nukes?
This is somewhat similar with the issue the former Soviet Union had in dealing with Cuba - what to do with the rebellious stepchild who soaks up the funds while ignoring the rules. North Korea has been consecutively led by a cult figure head that continues erratic and extreme policies. The country's instability is a problem for China. At some point, I believe China is going to start pulling in the purse strings.
As far as reducing our nuclear stockpile, I've written this in another post. Each nuclear warhead contains the energy of over 1 million tons of dynamite. We simply do not need this amount in our arsenal. We have MIRV missiles that contain multiple rockets that are independently programed to hit other targets - each containing warheads. We could drastically reduce our arsenal alone and still turn the planet into a dust bowl. You don't need a stick of dynamite to blow up an ant hill.
Remove a PERMANENT member?
The UN Security Council is made up of 15 members, but China is one of five that's permanent. Their standing internationally puts them in that top five category, so they can't be removed any more than the U.S. can.
Let's take a rational look at both the article and some of the comments. To begin with, IMHO The People's Republican of China had absolutely nothing to fear from the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. If nuclear push came to nuclear shove NK would stand zero chance to survive much less prevail. The greater threat from an unstable NK government is a possible collapse of the NK government and then what?
First of all would they attempt to "fill the gap" in NK with troops "safeguard" the border from the "Imperialist" United States and it's "lackey state" South Korea? ...possibly but at huge expense. Not only would such a move be hugely unpopular politically but taking on the responsibility to prevent mass starvation within NK is something I'm pretty sure China does not look forward to. Also what about a potential confrontation with SK and the USA? Even an accidental confrontation could be disastrous.
Would they simply let SK waltz into NK to reunify the peninsula? Several reasons not to might include an economic superpower with a new port for export and a lot of cheap labor. Granted trying to prevent the NK people from starving would be a huge drain on the SK economy (see German Reunification), still in the long run, is that really something they want? Also they are trying to flex their muscles in the South China Sea and a reunified Korea with a US ally might also not be what the Chinese would see as beneficial to their new place in the sun.
Again in my humble opinion, with China changing government officials, I believe they will try to buy time with a public condemnation of the NK but will support nothing that would destabilize them.
- Considering the land mass of the Korean Peninsula, that might not be the best move for the South Koreans.
- Good luck with that. We are likely more distrusted throughout the world than China. Remember, they haven't invaded anyone since Tibet.
- I disagree. I believe China is treading water. China has never had NK on a tight leash and they don't now. If anyone's playing both ends against the middle I'd say it's NK.
Just like in Pakistan, the North Korean nukes are there as a hedge to keep the current family in power since the whole world doesn't want to let these types of weapons fall into even less competent hands.
It was a bloody miracle to get the nuclear weapons and waste material out of Kazakhstan after the fall of the Soviet Union. The world doesn't want more close-calls like that one.
Soooooo...Pakistan get's to have a sustained cold war with India with occasional hot conflicts...but the rest of the world doesn't get involved unless it looks like Pakistan's government is going to crumble
Kim Jong Un wants that same kid-gloves treatment.
He and his cohorts are very happy with the endless supply of peasant child-courtesans and unquestioned despotic rule, and the way to maintain that was originally to play patsy for the PRC as a rogue against the US/S.Korea when China was an adversary to the West; but now that China wants in to the global economic super-power club...the N. Koreans couldn't depend on China's unwavering support...hence the need for a set of nukes and the endless tantalizing of AQ, Myanmar, Iran etc. to share in the fun.
China, S.Korea and the US will have little choice but to treat N.Korea in the same (similar) manner as Pakistan.
/my interpretation
//golden retriever that wears a tie to work...go figure.
Let's take them out now. I'm tired of footing the tax burden for feeding them everytime they threaten to do something. I lived in China just a couple hundred miles from the border. It would be easy and fast. The world would forgive us if we just target the palace or whatever you want to call it. It's a wasteland as I have seen the people crossing the border into China.
@ John R. Reymer
Which armchair military academy did you graduate from?
N. Korea would unleash havoc on the S.Koreans. There is no way for a clean kill in this.
N. Korea is chock-full of fanatical followers that have had 2 generations worth of continuous indoctrination and isolation from the West and rational minds.
Wiping out Pyongyang does nothing other than to launch every artillery shell N.Korea has onto Seoul. This is not by mistake. This is a deadman's switch that would undoubtedly go off if "dear leader" gets slaughtered like the swine that he is. This has always been the hedge of the N.Korean regime and why there has not been a true end to the Korean War.
Let me pose this question to all of you supposed intelligent people. Do you think that China is any less afraid of North Korea than Japan, South Korea or the United States? The answer is NO! They realize that if they upset that mad man who is in charge of the North Korean government that he can just as easily lob a rocket with a nuke on the end of it at Beijing as he can Seoul or Tokyo or the United States and would not hesitate if he felt threatened.
This is nothing new. North Korea can't seem to go very long without making nuclear threats. Every time, they keep shouting and hollering about how they are going to do it. And every time, the don't do it and it ends with countries like us (United States) giving them federal aid and stuff. I honestly believe that even they aren't crazy enough to actually do it. Even they must know that they would destroy themselves if they were to hit anyone with a Nuke. This seems to be their way of begging for stuff because they have nothing. And it seems to work, because we always give them stuff to shut up for awhile. We just love giving away our money.
I don't know what China has to gain from being allies with such a desolate country as North Korea, other than the fact that they are neighbors. At first, it was because they were both Communist regimes, but now North Korea is still dirt poor and China seems to be evolving into something else. China is going through their industrial revolution, and is becoming more of a capitalistic based country under authoritarian rule than a true Communism. But even that is changing by the day. China doesn't need anything from North Korea because they have nothing. South Korea is where all the lights, industry, jobs, civilization, etc. are located. If anything, it would be South Korea that China would find reasons to be allies with. So I have to wonder if it isn't only a matter of time before China gets fed up with North Korea, even though they were the ones who helped turned it into what it is today.
@ love sonnet,
Even if they were that mad, North Korea would destroy themselves in the process. By the time North Korea got the first hit, any country they hit, depending on who it was, would likely get China and/or the United States to release their wrath on them. And I would guess that others like NATO would also probably get involved. China may be many things, but they aren't stupid and can more than hold their own. Especially against the pit of a country that is currently North Korea.
Now I will be the first one to say North Korea is mad. But even they must know that if they hit anyone else with a Nuke, or even tried to, they would likely destroy themselves in the process. I don't think even they are so mad that they would want to destroy themselves. But even if they are, I don't believe they would have time to get more than one strike off. It would be horrific, sure. But only one strike would not be enough to do bring a country like China to its knees. It would just make them furious. Kinda like what happened with us (the united States) on 9/11, except on a much larger scale.
they have WMD's...we need ole George W. Bush...he'd show'em who's boss...
@plain bob... Dubya had his chance with their 1st test in 2006. Fail.
He was a tad busy waging a false war against WMDs to address the real threat.
@AG99 Well, China probably doesn't want to deal with the influx of North Korean refugees pouring into their country should something happen to North Korea.
Hey: maybe we can get n.korea & china to help us out with our corrupt government problem. Aim em at D.C. boys aim em at D. C.
;
China should not be afraid of a North Korean launch against them. But being next door to an immature NK leader with a 12 year old mentality who is playing with matches should make them not sleep at night. When a big nuclear accident the radiation clould is in the Chinese backyard. How foolish...........
Yep, the refugee would number in the millions. China is still a developing economy, they are not equipped to absorb that kind of influx without some sort of major negative impact. I don't even think we can.
As for others saying that China needs to cut off all aid or even for us to launch an attack NK first, those would be the ultimate idiot moves in this scenario. What happens when you back a rabid dog into a corner? It will bite regardless of friend or foe. That's basic human psychology and is applicable to both the sane and insane.
If NK is literally backed into a corner without an out, who is to say that the already unpredictable NK leadership won't decide to go out in a blaze of glory? NK may not have the capability to win a drawn out war with SK but if their goal was much more simple, let's say scorched earth, they do have the capability to turn everything within 20 miles of the 38th parallel into a chain of smoking craters before outside forces can get enough assets in place to successfully intervene. Barbed wire fences and mine fields is good at keeping tanks and troops out but no artillery shells. I'd like to see Pentagon deployment that can prevent that scenario short of nuking the entire country and killing millions. But that's not all. The radioactive fallout would then float into northeast China, SK, Japan AND the west coast of Canada/U.S., contaminating millions more. Some solution.
Frankly, if China could just peacefully turn NK over to the South tomorrow, they would probably jump at the chance. Officials from both nations have already discussed the 'Korean reunification' scenario since a few years ago and the depth of the discussion involving trade economics and natural resources shows that it was not just a base-touching exchange. The idea of a 'buffer zone' simply doesn't hold as much appeal to China as it did a decade ago since SK is already not content with just being a U.S. proxy. In fact, in recent years the SK leaders have shown more hostility towards Japan than it has with China. SK businesses are also in the midst of investing heavily in China, already claiming a large share of the various consumer electronics/appliance market while also trying to squeeze out the Japanese on the automaker front. Why is this important? Because in SK, politics and business is inseparable and many executives from 'Chaebol' (mega-conglomerates) have gone on to become high ranking political leaders.
With all of that said, the biggest obstacle to such a reunification scenario is that pesky million men strong NK army and hundreds of artillery pieces they aimed at Seoul. China at this point has no choice but to bide its time and wait for an opportunity to unify Korea and be rid of the ever irritating headache once and for all.
Whatever happens it should be interesting to see what becomes of this all. I do believe its China's move or wait to see what NK does... i mean does anyone have a scenerio where NK does anything GOOD with WMD's? I can't think of any....
North Korea crisis: China speaks softly to avoid alienating nuclear-armed neighbor
...pussies!
@ oneofthesane,
Still hung up on blaming everything on Bush I see. Well here is a little fact you overlooked and probably on purpose. Back in the 90's it was Pres Clinton who gave the North Koreans 2 light water nuke plants on their promise to use it only for humanitarian purposes and to shut down their 5 megawatt reactor which the head of the IAEA Hans Blix warned was not a good idea. Clinton didn't listen to him and went ahead with the "Agreed Framework " negotiations and signed them.
The United States and North Korea signed the "Agreed Framework": North Korea agreed to
freeze its plutonium production program in exchange for fuel oil, economic
cooperation, and the construction of two modern light-water nuclear power
plants. Eventually, North Korea's existing nuclear facilities were to be
dismantled, and the spent reactor fuel taken out of the country. (credit Wikipedia)
Only problem was that NK would never let the IAEA inspect the plutonium reactor and confirm it was being dismantled, but Clinton continued to give them the 2 light water reactors anyhow on their word only.
So if you want to blame anyone for this debacle you should focus it on Bill Clinton and his liberal left bleeding heart for the North Koreans plight.
I find it funny how everyone has their opinion on this, and they are all so different. Here's what I think:
1. North Korea wants things. So they cry nuke.
The king of the ant hill talks like he is king of the mountain, but in the end he is insignificant. It's all very simple. They just want attention and aid. Whenever North Korea cries, "Nuke 'em all!!!!" or something similar, they get things. There has been a pattern of this for years, going well back to the rule of the kid's father. North Korea has nothing, but every time they shout about Nuking the planet, we give them stuff so they will shut up for awhile. Then a bit of time passes, and they do it again. And then we give them more stuff. That's all they want.
2. North Korea is crazy, but I doubt they are suicidal unless made desperate and backed into a corner.
Yes, I'll be the first to say North Korea is crazy. But even they must know what would happen if they let a Nuke hit anther country. They would be eliminated. Yes, it would be tragic. But one Nuke and the United States, probably much of the United Nations, and even possibly China (although no guarantee) depending on the situation, would be doing a heck of a lot more to North Korea than mere sanctions. It would practically be suicide for them.
Yes, North Korea is crazy and has nothing. If you look at Korea from space, South Korea is brightly lit. Meanwhile, North Korea is completely dark save one tiny little spec where I assume their esteemed "leaders" must live. After all, they must believe they are too important to live in the dark like their subjects. But still, the "leaders" there are in power and probably wouldn't want to lose that. As soon as they Nuke another country, they seriously risk throwing that all away. I don't think they would do that unless they were backed into a corner and found themselves in a position where they were screwed anyway. You know, if they had nothing to lose? But short of having nothing to lose, I don't think they would want to lose that position of power they have. So as long as they can be assured of that, I'll be they won't actually try to nuke someone.
3. Kim Jong Un is just a cult puppet. A mere figurehead of the ruling party in North Korea.
As for the king of the ant hill, I'm not sure Kim Jong Un is even the king of that piss ant country. I'm pretty sure he was raised to be a radical puppet figurehead of a corrupt regime. He isn't in charge there. Not really. If he makes the wrong move, I'm sure his "supporters" in the government could throw him out in a heart beat. Notice how North Korea has been making a lot more noise since daddy died? It's because Kim Jong Un is desperately trying to legitimize his rule and prove his worth. But for now, he hasn't done squat and is still a figurehead for a cult like "government" of sorts.
4. China doesn't need North Korea. Will they eventually get fed up with the crazy regime they set up in the first place?
China is no longer strictly Communist. The world is such that even China had to acknowledge that their longtime policy of isolation doesn't work anymore. So they are becoming much more economic. They are going through their industrial revolution, but more quickly because the technology already exists. China is evolving into more of a capitalist based country under authoritarian rule. And even that is changing by the day. I don't know the end result, but the point is that China has come a long way. And despite its faults, they are now a substantial world power. Make no mistake about it, North Korea would have no choice but to listen if China really wanted to assert themselves. Even at the threat of an extremely crazy North Korea neighbor nuking them, one Nuke would not bring China to it's knees. It would be tragic, sure. But in the long run, it would only serve to make China extremely angry and end the power grip of North Korea's current "rulers." Kind of like our 9/11, but on a much larger scale.
Since it was China propped them up, they can certainly bring them down if it came to it. And if North Korea becomes too much trouble, would it be worth it to China to keep putting up with it? They probably no longer care about the spread of Communism, as the cold war era is over and China is much more of a capitalist country than before. And North Korea is worthless as a trading partner. So when does North Korea become more trouble than it's worth to China? Not that North Korea is worth much now anyway.
5. China doesn't love us by any means, but the United States is likely not considered to be China's "enemy."
I love people who actually think China is out to get us. The truth is that they are glad we exist because we owe them money. We owe them a lot of money. And we pay a ton of interest on that debt. China is making a killing off us. Yes, we clash and disagree in policy sometimes. Yes, we have had disputes over jobs headed over seas. Yes, they like to sponsor hackers to mess with us. And yes, the interests and morals of each country differ greatly. But it is a good thing for them that we exist because they have been making a killing off of us for years. Why would they want to disrupt the gravy train fed by our incompetent politicians who can't balance a budget? Remember, China is all about their economy now. And we greatly contribute to that. Thank you, Washington!
Dear China, If you want to have this "new world order" where you make trillions and move into the 21st century, then it's time to sht of get off the pot. You have a responsibility to reign in this threat. You wnt to be a world power? then act like one. This guy endangers you too. Here is a chance to gain world trust. Don't blow it playing head games. All the products you sell here are in jeopardy. They can easily be replaced with cheap goods from India and south America. even Africa. If our leaders get smart. if the foundation families get smart, they will give their business to the areas i mentioned and china will suck wind.
Sorry God of Fate, but China IS out to get us. They ARE our enemy. They're waging an economic and industrial war against us and hope to make us their slave through that debt you speak of, as well as by stealing our industries and jobs. Why bomb us when you can simply own us? Technology and finance are the battlegrounds of the 21st century and, until recently, we were losing (and we still have a very long way to go). As their wages rise they need a source of cheap labor and resources, and the multi-national corporations are doing everything they can to help that be the United States.
As for North Korea, wouldn't it be funny if they decided to use their arsenal to grab some resources from China? Just never know with those guys.
Competition cannot be based on price if we are to have any chance for survival as long as there are place in the world whose workers can be forced to work for pennies per day. We are a huge consumer base. We must insure that all products brought into this country cost more than what we can build them for ourselves. Then and only then will competition be about quality, and that's a war we can win.
God I hope that's satire. If GW and his entire administration had a Barium Enema this morning they couldn't find their collective a$$ with both hands and a Geiger counter!
You have some really odd ideas about how US/Chinese relations work. They are not our enemy. If they were we should have already attacked them. The are a trading partner and a competitor with no real love lost between the two of us. Your comment about them wanting to enslave us is completely absurd. They are interested in becoming the dominant economic super-power. That doesn't work if they are busy maintaining slaves...it's just not economically feasible. It's much more profitable to simply manipulate their currency and pressure US Corporations doing business in China to keep US Tariffs low. With lots of cheap goods for sale they can simply work to impoverish us with the Help of our own corporate masters. They are both quite willing to pick our bones for the last scraps.
Troy
What makes you think South Korea does not already have some? Either of their own or any that the U.S. may or may not already have prepositioned there?
Keep kicking the can down the road until it becomes "even more explosive".
I feel bad for the coming generations.
Like much of the SOP of the aging guard getting ready to shed this mortal coil every generation since the dawn of civilization
"I got mine...F-YOU!"
China would be much wiser to eradicate the problem they caused in the first place.
I think so, too.
No one would be mad at China for blowing up North Korea
Except South Korea, Japan and a few other nearby "downwind" neighbors. I think Japan's had about enough radioactive contamination lately...you know?
When asked by news what our response would be Susan Rice -- "the usual drill". Another incompetent from an incompetent admin.
What a professional she is - perhaps we can blame NK shenanigans on a video.
Oh great...words of wisdom from the planet TeaPublica. By all means, let's do what Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz would do and invade. Come on folks...the President's about to announce half our troops to be withdrawn from Afghanistan within the year. How on earth can we continue to feed Halliburton this way?
I think it is obvious that South Korea and Japan are seriously threatened by the presence of nuclear weapons in North Korea. I think the US should announce that we will help them both attain such weapons. Reality is that both countries could build a bomb in about a week as they both are so more advanced than North Korea and equal if not ahead of China. China would become cooperative then. China does not want possibly two beligerent nations on their doorstep with nukes. We need to get a pair on this one.
Clearly you aren't looking at reality.
1. NK already has the bomb, since your talking about nukes...that puts them ahead of SK and Japan.
2. Ahead of China...Really? Not only does China have nukes...they have delivery systems. I believe that put China ahead of SK and Japan as well.
3. Get a pair and do what? Do you believe nuking NK is in our national interest? Clearly you don't live on the US West Coast (think weather patterns). Do you think we should invade? Do you suppose we can afford to start another war right now? Get a pair and do what...use harsh language?
But thank you for playing.
yes by all means continue sanctions. We can rebuild our Nation after a nuke just like the Jap's did... Moron coward liberals have no back bone or FAITH!!!!!
Your idiotic believe that an invisible mythical deity is coming to your rescue is really quite reassuring to the rest of us. You would be one of those low information voter the rest of us are so concerned about. You're absolutely right however...why wait when we can start another war right now?
"Come along your big strong men, Uncle Sam needs your help again..."
Put your faith in Halliburton!
20+ years service to the United States of America in uniform. How long did you serve?
North Korea has had nuclear capability for several years now. If one suspects the recent test was to develop a ICBM capable warhead, well that would be the expected progression for North Koreans.
However, if North Korea detonated an underground nuclear test to ...say celebrate Joe Biden's birthday, now that would be news. Or if North Korea wanted to upstage the President's State of the Union Address, maybe that's the reason. But it could also be a simple as " Heh, what's this button do?".
Second guessing the North Koreans is severely problematic, what seems like a reasonable line of logic to China, America, or Russia may not be the same for North Koreans.
The American response (at least the public response) is as ridiculous as North Korea's detonation of the device. We consider it "provocative" (you mean like showing too much thigh or cleavage?). North Korea still considers itself at war with South Korea, I suspect they're not all that impressed with President Obama's disappointment or whatever provocative nature he is alluding to.
The US can not afford to fight a war with North Korea, it would disrupt the world economy to such a point that we might tumble into either a deep recession or even a depression. Our military is not prepared, manned, equipped or morale-wise ready for a war on the Korean peninsula. I suspect if the US were forced into a war with North Korea, the US would eventually win it (without resorting to nuclear weapons), but we can't afford another war.
Of course, the US wouldn't be the first nation to use going to war as an excuse to distract attention away from the economy and waive the normal budget processess to extend debt spending.
Of course the US will play above board and according to Hoyle's, but then there are those times when politicians feel like they should never let a crisis go to waste. Opportunities to shift the country's attention away from domestic problems and borrow without concern for the immediate impact just may be too powerful a draw for some to resist.
What do you think?
I think that we are already in a deep recession...at least that's what the media keeps telling me.
"We consider it "provocative" (you mean like showing too much thigh or cleavage?)."
Well, after all, he IS Time Magazine's choice for "Sexiest Man on Earth". :D
But I hope he's not showing his "Trouser cleavage".
unwantedguest...it sure does feel like we're in a recession, but technically we came out of the recession back in 2011. It takes two consecutive fiscal quarters of negative growth to qualify as a recession, so technically, we're doing just fine. Adjusted inflation is less than 2%, so we're not in an inflationary period, so that's good. The economy grew at somewhere between 1.7% and 2.2% (depending who you believe) and though unemployment remains fairly steady at 7.8% there is a ton of cheap money being floated to corporations and into federal, state and local governments, so how bad could it be? Home loans are all-time low rates and all indications are that the President wants to forgive Student Loans, exclude Union members from the Affordable Health-care Act, bring 11 million illegal immigrants into the mainstream for health-care and education benefits, as well as fast-track pathway for citizenship.
So all-in-all we're just honkey dorrey!
The only thing we need to really blend it all into one big happy year is a war on the Korean peninsula!
Happy-Happy, Joy, Joy Song!
There's no "eventually" involved. Our technologically superior military would defeat the North Koreans quickly, just as we defeated the very large Iraqi armies in both wars. However, the North Koreans could devastate Seoul in just a few hours. That's the real problem. No buffer space.
RTColorado...based upon my 22 years in the Army that included a tour in Korea, I agree that our military is "not prepared, manned, equipped or morale-wise ready for a war on the Korean peninsula." We're talking about serious attrition warfare. In the main its a South Korean effort, as there very few US ground troops are there now, so the primary US effort would be using its air power. Frankly, Korea is the one place I truly dreaded ever to go to battle in.
Barry, the North Koreans are not the Iraqis; the North Koreans are one hell of a lot more dangerous. Anyone who spends 50+ years preparing for war is going to be ready. And there is no way around having to go in on the ground and fight them. That means a prolonged ground fight in some of the most inhospitable terrain and weather on the planet.
The biggest mistake anyone can make with North Korea is under-estimating them. Americans have a lot of misconceptions about the North Koreans, and it's because of all these news stories by Lisa Ling or whoever she is. The North Koreans are a hard-nosed, smash-mouth people. The malnutrition stories lead too many Americans to think that the North Koreans will follow you around like a puppy dog if you offer them a ham sandwich. And if a North Korean is following you around like a puppy dog, rest assured he's doing it for one reason: an opportunity to kill you. The North Koreans are no joke.
You sound like Dick Cheney. Ya, we can beat them but it will cost us. Lot's of American blood, lot's of American money. If you think the Iraqi insurgency was bad...now you're dealing with a whole other degree of ugly.
Underground is where All nuclear bombs belong. NK conventional weapons and sizable army is more of a worry to local countries. NK knows that use of a nuclear weapon would mean suicide.
Warren, you are correct. NK's army is significant. In 1950 when they attacked the south, there was no warning or provocation. I am not convinced the South could stop them no matter how well trained they are. When they stop the saber rattling is when I would be concerned.
Paul-349058
Sure the South could stop them, but only because they ran out of land and ran into the Yellow Sea. Not trying to be flippant but Seoul is within range of their artillery. I'm sure we could eventually drive them back north, but do we really want to go there. If they invaded SK we'd have no choice, but let's not pretend it's Iraq and just volunteer for it.
I think Kim Jong Un has cerebral hemorrhoids. He's not playing with a full deck, and suffers from delusions of adequacy. Here is this little clown, ruler over a little country full of hungry people spending billions on a nuclear weapons program. He's like a little Chihuahua growling and lunging at the neighbors because he knows he can't get thru the fence. It is all a show to impress the starving people in his country, so they'll regard him as a "powerful leader". It might keep them from revolting for a little while longer. But there is some danger here. Over the centuries there have been several nut cases like him who have led their countries into terrible wars, and the destruction of their countries: Hitler, Hirohito, Napoleon, Kaiser "Crazy Bill" Willhelm...
Let's be honest - If it weren't for China, all Koreans would be better off, and particularly the majority of North Koreans. The North Korean dictatorship is only in power at the pleasure of communist China.
Of course, the Chinese government doesn't take care of a lot of their own poor peasants.
C'mon folks...settle down. Kim Jong Um is a serious leader of a serious country with nuclear weapons. He didn't get into the position he's in by some fluke, it's not like he inherited the country from his father or something. The guy had to go through a reasonable process of maturation and education and experience prior to becoming Supreme Leader. When you combine the well thought out process of succession with the reasoned approach North Korea has taken in its relations with its neighbor, South Korea, as well as Japan and the United States it's hard to see how anything could go wrong!
more and more sanction?? hmmm...how many sanctions are left? "pointless" like NK cares at all, even iran did the same.
A little sarcasm here or maybe it may work. The North Koreans have a little parade with most if not all its troops including the dear leader and all his little puppets. The USA drops on nuke maybe 2 on the parade while its going on then all wiped out problem solved. Then we rub it into the North Koreans (what is left of them) this is what your dear leader did to you. He thought having nukes were a show of power you only have 6-12 nukes the world powers have 1000's more than. The only true way to solve this somehow remove the dear leader from power. We all know he won't just step down.
Nut jobs Kim Jong and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad will be the trigger finger of the first ever nuclear attack on Israel and the US. A stern warning will not curtail the horror these men are willing to release on innocent people, but in spite of what we know we wait for them to make the first move.
"....but in spite of what we know we wait for them to make the first move."
Because you'd like to drop a few nukes on them, Sparky? Is that it? Gee, that's a SWELL idea.
It is a swell idea, Timmster. Name one bad effect of blowing them off the map.
If they are going to call people out, they need to be prepared. Actually, I think it would be amusing to fire off an ICBM directly at the location of the little dictator, and have it plop down UNARMED right in front of his position. WIth "next time it's your ass" written on the side in Korean.
Most of you do not understand.North Korea wants attention and money again.They are getting the attention that they seek like a spoiled Bill Clinton and Obama will cut them another aid check andaid package for their trouble.By the way,do you think that China is afraid of North Korea? Really?Who do you think is encouraging North Korea? People stop saying that we should use nukes or hand North Korea more nukes.A nuclear exchange is not setting off a chain of fireworks.It is deadly beyond belief.America come home and let South Korea deal with the north.The time for babysitting South Korea is over.
Spoken like a true coward atheist punk chicken @!$%# moron punk face sissy turd packing leatard wearing dodge ball losing and generally waste of flesh
I think it's so cute how they pretend the UN Security Council matters at all, or is relevant. I mean, they're just adorable!
Detonating a couple of small devices is nowhere near the same as having operational nuclear weapons. If something is going to be done about it, then now would be the perfect time to nip this in the bud.
I doubt NK would ever actually launch a nuke, as their missiles seem to have a tendency to explode at the wrong time.
You don't believe NK would ever launch a nuke or share fissle material? Based on what an imperfect technical track record? Get real. North Korea's actions speak for themselves. They need to be dealt with now with a pre emptive strike before they develop a suite of fully operational weapons.
I was saying that their ballistic missile tests have all pretty much been failures. In 2009 they claimed to launch a weather satellite into orbit but it actually just fell in the pacific ocean. On April 12 2012, another"weather satellite" launch exploded 90 seconds after ignition. Also in 2009 they launched a bunch of SCUDs at Japan but they all went haywire and fell into the sea. Poverty and isolation does not create good engineers.
Another real worry is NK sharing the fissle material and nuclear technology with Iran and other rogue states. This is happening right now!! Tougher sanctions are a joke especially with Chinese appeasement of it's little brother. Not dealing with NK now with a pre emptive strike will lead to a much bigger war later. What happens when DPNK soon has mounted a nuclear warhead on one of it's long range missiles? This is very close to becoming a reality if in fact they don't already have that capability. Ask the Japanese how worried they are...
I believe eventually a rabid dog will bite and make no mistake Kim Jong Un is a mad dog.
Emwardo, that is the truth. For this reason, we need to re-shuffle North Korea's nuclear material with a larger, more effective nuclear weapon. If they are fried, they won't be a problem again.
China will continue to use North Korea as it's pawn to agitate the so called free world. China knows that nothing will be done to herself for any actions taken by North Korea and that the useless UN will continue to blame North Korea even though China is the one instigating most of the crap that is going on. A large portion of the world will eventually turn on North Korea and China will merely sit it out until it knows that North Korea has whittled down the capabilities of the other world powers at which time China will intervene with everything she has. China knows that Americas politically correct BS and her growing divisiveness will be the death of our country. China knows exactly what she is doing - North Korea is China's puppet and the little fat boy doesn't have a clue, nor does he care.
China know if the NK launches a nuke its over. This time i don't think that China would back them like they did in the 50's. too much money to be made from Japan SK and US. If they sided with the north again, there ecom. would be gone in a day. north Korea would be ashes. China are very rational people. North Koreans would cut there own noses from there face if the west told them not too. Even if was for there own good.
The more the Japanese feel uncertain about the U.S. nuclear umbrella that has protected them for the last 70 years, the more likely they will be to get their own atomic weapons. This is no time to shrink our forces and invite instability.
If I were a world leader, I would tune down my huge ego and bullying ability, simply and humbly ask, "What are you really looking for N. Koreans". Its clear to see they are reaching out the only way they know how from their isolation. I think the young Korean leader wants his country to be part of the modern world in all ways. What I see is political moves to draw attention the only way he has ever known and furthermore the only thing they have ever been acknowledged for. You cannot condemn an entire population of people. That’s genocide. But of course warfare 101, the enemy is less than human, I forgot. And they are not human if we need to bully them to control the planets financial trade. It is in the world’s interest to make fair resolutions for all. I have a strong feeling North Korea really wants the iron curtain to come down in a way that they are not run over by bullies. I think it’s the western countries keeping it up with propaganda. Not for sure, but it seems that way to me as a newsreader. Typically if the West wants it that way, that’s the way, it’s going to be. I always try to read between the lines and see what the West and Europe are really looking for. Usually there is big dollars and power attached to the news stories and conflicts. I would really like to sit and enjoy the company of the North Koreans, learn about their culture and teach of ours. Exchange ideas and see what the young leader visions for his people. I hope one day to be in a position to have such world meetings. World trade can move along just fine not controlling every single variable. “Homogonous”, anything is detrimental to overall species health. Same as in-breeding. That’s biology 101 for your warfare 101. Do we want one world controller? Funny once the power is established, anti trust laws seems to disappear for the few controlling entities. Not a good sign for the world’s health in the long-run.
While everyone hates the regime, nobody is willing to deal with the aftermath if the regime falls. Refugees for China and South Korea, and possibly Japan? Hell no.....
In their minds the US can talk what they want coz the US don't have to deal with it geographically, so they don't think US has a skin in this game. China could care less if NK has nuke, NK won't use it against China coz China will just blow the entire peninsula out of the planet if provoked.
SK should be scared sh1tless and if it's attacked it'll drag the US into the region, also something China don't want to happen, and if it did, it would force China to back NK turning it into a proxy war against US.
All in all it's actually the Chinese that is between a rock and a hard place, let them deal with it.
This is exactly why Obama should have only served 1 term. We once again are in need of a president with balls.
And what would this scrotally-blessed president of yours do about this?
DAVID/MIFO--- that's the kind of mindless rhetoric that got the GOP's tails kicked this past election, and why they are likely to be repudiated in 2014!! Keep it up!! Crushing this version of the GOP is in the nation's best interests. Just about ALL of the really dangerous disasters we face right now are due to the Republican Party. Joe America has tuned out your propaganda!!
But I agree, let China handle it--but I dont think they will!!
Beijing's foreign minister summoned North Korea's ambassador for a dressing down and sternly expressed, "Go ahead with the test. We'll tell everyone we 'strongly' disagreed. Just don't do anything too stupid."
david johnson-2110159 (#25):
You're a total idiot.
Our Prez has balls and proofed it in the manner he hads gotten Bin Laden and many others hiding in Pakistan. Bushy didn't. In fact he let his arab friends off the hook right after 9/11.
So David Johnson re-read your recent real history vs listening to the cast off's on Fox News.
Bush called them one of the axis of evil caung them to break off ties and accelerating their nuclear warhead production. Clearly Bush never was able to figure out which countries actually were making WMD and those who weren't but he was willing to look everywhere.
I imagine a world without borders and militaries. I for one welcome a one world government.
That would mean the end of war.
The end of endless arms races.
The end of so many needless useless deaths for mainly monetary or political reasons.
The end of countless civilian deaths.
Peace the world over.
Read Revelation chapter 20.
Lol, that imagined world wouldn't have any people in it.
@ MoreJustice
LOL, how would being united under a single world-government solve ANY of the above items?
Defense is needed because there will ALWAYS be opportunists, psychos and sociopaths, and lots of stupid young boys willing to do their bidding. Uniting under one government doesn't get rid of any of the aforementioned parties.
Yes, sort of. There would no longer be international conflicts, just internal ones.
Nope, there will always be a need to keep advancing weapon technology because you still haven't solved for the opportunists and sociopaths who will work tirelessly to impose their own terms and oppose that of the authorities'.
How would this change just because you've consolidated all governments into one? Plenty of governments liquidate their own civilians for numerous reasons. Look at the US government's War on Drugs and how state and federal law-enforcement confiscate private property for their own profit.
How does this happen? People die needlessly all the time. Chicago alone has some of the highest civilian deaths in the nation. It's more dangerous there than Baghdad! I doubt a consolidated government solves any of that
Yeah, nice fantasy, but completely unsubstantiated and unrealistic
LOL, how great is this? They enabled this punk of a nation for so many years and now they feel threatened by their own little brat. good for them