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Peter Parks / AFP - Getty Images
A man passes a women wearing shorts as she waits for a subway train in Shanghai on Wednesday. A subway operator in the Chinese metropolis of Shanghai has caused uproar by warning women not to wear revealing clothes to avoid being groped by the city's "perverts."
BEIJING – For women in Shanghai looking to beat the heat this summer with skimpier clothes, the city’s subway authorities have a message: dress appropriately or be ready to deal with the inevitable sexual harassment.
The controversy online started on June 20 when someone posted on the Shanghai Number 2 Subway Line official Weibo account – Chinese version of Twitter – a picture of a female passenger wearing a revealing dress with the comment: “If that’s what you wear on the subway, then no wonder you will be sexually harassed! There are perverts riding the subway every day and we can’t catch them all. Girls, you’ve got to respect yourself!”
Outrage over the comment was swift and voluminous, quickly becoming the second-most discussed topic on Weibo with nearly 16,000 forwards and 7,000 comments tagged to the original post alone.
No right to judge!
The overwhelming number of comments condemned the message and its insinuation that revealing dress could be viewed as an invitation for harassment; branding it blatant gender discrimination.
"It's a woman’s business to choose what to wear, if laws or your regulations do not forbid her from dressing like this, you [the Metro] have no right to chastise them,” wrote one commentator. “If your logic were right, then all men would harass women in the swimming pool.”
“You have the right to judge whether people are dressing elegantly or not. And you have the right to like it or not,” wrote another critic of the Shanghai Metro. “But you have no right to harass anyone!”
Some people also raised questions about the fact that the Shanghai Metro staff took a photo of the unwitting passenger in the first place, and, adding insult to injury, used the photo in its controversial public service announcement.
Zhejiang Province Police
The Zhejiang province police department's diagram meant to give women guidance on how men's lurking eyes can lead to sexual harrassment.
“First I think the Metro has no right to insult others, especially their passengers. It's a matter of professional decency,” wrote Hao Junbo, a lawyer on Weibo. “If the Metro published this person's picture without approval beforehand, it violates the passenger's rights.”
Responding to the criticism, Lan Tian, a press officer for Shanghai Shentong Metro Group, the authority that runs the Shanghai subway, justified the company’s comments to the Chinese state newspaper Global Times.
"As the city's subway operator, we have the responsibility to warn women of the potential danger of sexual harassment on the subway," he told the Global Times. "At the same time, we are not justifying any kind of sexual harassment or inappropriate behavior."
Nevertheless, perhaps inspired by the general sentiment expressed online, a couple days later on June 24, several women went to another subway station in Shanghai to protest the Weibo post by the Shanghai Metro.
Donning black veils that covered their faces and holding signs that said things like, “Just because I'm slutty doesn't mean you can be dirty,” the girls rode the subway in an attempt to call attention to the issue.
Interestingly, this time though, online sentiment was against the protestors, with many arguing that women should in fact dress more conservatively while riding the subway. A recent online poll by Sina Weibo found that 55 percent of over 10,000 people agreed with that sentiment.
Elaborate diagrams to thwart harassment
By all accounts, reports of sexual harassment on the Shanghai metro have been on the rise this year. An editorial in Wednesday’s edition of China’s People’s Daily noted that there had been seven cases of sexual harassment since May of this year.
There has been a greater emphasis nationally to raise awareness about sexual harassment and to educate Chinese women on how to protect themselves. But some of the recent articles on how to avoid becoming a victim of sexual harassment verge on the ridiculous.
A recent article by the popular Chinese web portal, QQ, includes a number of graphics showing how men attempt to harass women by looking up skirts on elevators or even when women try on shoes at department stores.
But this diagram put out on the Zhejiang province police department’s official Weibo account earlier this year was perhaps the most puzzling. It looks like an elaborate SAT math question requiring a thorough grounding in geometry. For example, the second and third illustrations are designed to help women understand the angles at which men can position their heads or bodies to look up their skirts while riding the subway.
If the diagram is confusing already with its multiple diagrams, consider the English translation of the explanation:
“If the eyes of the ‘observer’, i.e. the point E, is right on the extension of segment BC, then point B would fall into his eyesight. Then, let's make another line of DE which goes through E and is perpendicular to the extension of AC, then the right triangle of DEC is similar to the right triangle of ABC. So clearly, the length of DC is the horizontal distance between the man's eye and the lady’s skirt. Ladies, have you figured that out?”
Unsure if you have figured out whether that man is looking up your skirt? Consult the closest math teacher in your subway car.
NBC News’ Horace Lu contributed to this report.
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Leave a Comment:
Looks like Shanghai is on pace to start attracting tourists!
Well, all right, for being dumb, woman hating, and making a sign about it. Shanghai, competing with Arizona?
...wait you mean they don't want this kind of attention? Wow it was really hard to tell.
Yes it does.
It's like my dad used to say. "If you don't want people to look at it, don't show it."
The fact that the Subway has to tell these kids the obvious is sad and depressing. And then they get angry? These women must have the intelligence of a grapefruit.
Journal, it's pretty clear you are just itchingto be one of those perverts on that subway. No matter what a woman chooses to wear, it does NOT give you the right to touch her. That is such a primitive mindset that your wonderful father clearly passed down to you.
Its called keeping your hands to yourself, or did you miss that class in kindergarten?
Mindy you should work on your reading comprehension. Journal said LOOK, he said nothing about touching. Or did you miss that class in preschool where they teach you the difference between looking and touching?
I'm sorry, I had assumed that his comment was relating to the topic of the story of harrassing women, not just oogling them. Glad you're here to defend him, Dain.
And you're the one who thinks everyone on the internet is male...
Why not think of the people who aren't perverts and don't want to see someone's crabby derierre and smell their fishy cleavage on the way to work?
So being a neanderthal with your opinions means what? That you're even less intelligent than you claim these women are?
Your Daddy certaintly didn't teach you right if you think that treating women badly is 'thier fault'. If your Daddy didn't teach you to treat women properly, then - well, you sure missed alot of the fatherly education that you should have gotten.
Only an uneducated idiot would talk about a woman in the manner that you Daddy seems to have taught you.
"Why not think of the people who aren't perverts and don't want to see someone's crabby derierre and smell their fishy cleavage on the way to work?"
What does this even have to do with anything? Pretty sure this about women being harassed, not you imposing your judgemental wardrobe choices on the world.
Based on the article it seems that the folks posting on behalf of the subway system are just asking women to take a bit of responsibility for their own comfort and personal safety. They know that perverts will ride public transport, they just wish to inform young women not to feed into the desires of the creepy and skevie.
There is nothing wrong with encouraging common sense. Obviously, women can wear what they wish but the need to know that pervs are opportunists and they will absolutely invate upon a young womans right to privacy in public places.
Former Marine Sgnt also thinks everyone on the Internet is male.
And my wardrobe is the judgemental-iest because it automatically assumes any man's a perv by not showing anything to any of them.
Guess who's never been harrassed on the subway... Me!
The subway is not responsible for these dumb twats who tromp into their offices looking like a cheap ho, complaining that someone asked for their business. But it's obviously a waste of their resources and time dealing with at least some of them. Let's hope they have a sensible person who loves them. And those loving people will take them aside and say, "Hey, if you look like that, be prepared for real world consequences."
...Parents? Hope you're reading!
It drives me nuts when people suggest I lock my car doors and hide any valuables inside.
Just because I have expensive stuff and choose to flaunt it, doesn't mean I'm asking for someone to steal it. Blame the criminals!
No, it just means you're stupid. I hope that was supposed to be sarcasm.
There's a difference between WARNING and BLAMING. By all means the logical content is correct "There are perverts on the subway, and the authorities cannot catch all of them." But it's not the fault of the person being harassed.
That's where they exceeded their responsibility. All they had to do was ask for a partnership, "Look we can't catch them all, so could you also help us by covering up better." But no, they had to be authoritarian.
And no, I don't think it is a translation problem. The way they said it, it certainly sounds bad in English, but given that native speakers of Chinese were similarly upset, I think the translation was accurate.
James82, are you seriously comparing a women's right to ride the subway in peace with an unlocked car?? So women should either go outside in burqas, or stay at home since men just can't control themselves? You make me sick.
And journal, your lucky you've never been harassed, but you need to realize that you don't have to be dressed like a "dumb twat" to be a victim. I hope you never have to find that out personally, despite your clear disrespect for other women.
I want one of those "lurking eyes" posters.
I've been harrassed before, just not on the subway. I was young and developing and my clothes weren't fitting properly. It was terrible and hurtful and demeaning. I never wanted to be treated that way ever again. So I dress properly.
I still wear shorts in summer, just not booty-shorts. I wear lots of different styles of clothes, but my midriff doesn't show.
I didn't want that attention, so I did what I could to take care of the issue. If someone is so hardheaded that they want to wear what they want without being harassed, too flippin' bad. Life's full of consequences for what you wear.
Military is to fatigues as Playboy Mansion is to (fill in blank here).
Misogynists will find ways to justify their misogyny regardless of what a woman is wearing. See: the middle east.
So maybe it's not really a problem of what women are wearing?
Women know exactly what they're showing, and enjoy teasing. They have a right to do it and guys will enjoy it. BUT that does not give anybody the right to harass, fondle or otherwise make a nuisance of themselves. Enjoy the view, but GROW UP. Women, a personal thank you for looking good. A pretty girl always brightens the day.
"Misogynists will find ways to justify their misogyny regardless of what a woman is wearing. See: the middle east.
So maybe it's not really a problem of what women are wearing?"
---exactly. No matter what women wear, it still comes down to men's behavior that needs to be addressed. Stop with blaming the victims. There is a clear shift that needs to take place in how women are viewed, and covering up all skin is not the way to bring it about.
...You have no alternative suggestions? How do you change how women are viewed without changing the view?
Why can't men behave themselves? But they blame their victims instead! Disgusting!
If you don't want to be treated like a slut, DON'T dress like one.
Well, maybe I think you're dressed like a slut--now can we all harrass you?
The same way you change racism? It's not exactly something you can fix overnight but it's not something you should really ignore either.
Starting with the ridiculous idea that men just can't control themselves if a woman doesn't cover up that a lot of people are fond of repeating, it's insulting to everyone and doesn't really help things.
If you don't want to be called a moron don't act like one.
Journal, women wearing nice shorts and tops that cover their midrift can be harassed just as easily as someone showing a lot less. You seem to be taking a lot of flack here because you are insinuating that because your shorts are an acceptable legnth (to you) that you are not inviting harassment... but the lady with shorter shorts has asked for it.
You ought not be so judgemental. The middle east solved that problem by forcing their women to wear burkas. It's bad enough that some men blame their inability to keep in their pants on women; do we really need women turning on women?
Apparently you guys aren't that aware of asian p0rn. They are obsessed with domination and voyeurism. I'd guess that 40% of their videos they put out are men groping women on subways.
How do I know this? Well, variety is the spice of life.
That's beyond the point though. It's almost an epidemic over there, so expect to reap what you sow. That's like some blond in a tight dress in NYC walking past a construction crew and being appaled they are catcalling and whistling at her. Both put themselves in that situation.
Who needs that personal responsibility stuff anyway?
I don't think racism has changed........... If you teach a man to respect a woman, and then he sees a woman dressing herself disrespectfully, he'll feel embarrassed and uncomfortable. Maybe women should respect themselves and dress themselves so as to ingender that same respect in others.
And quit comparing burkas to sensible dressing. That's an idiotic comparison. When I quit flashing people they quit yelping at me from the street. It's that simple.
He's uncomfortable because he's insecure. It doesn't have anything to do with respect.
Give me a definition for "sensible dressing" that's better than "I know it when I see it."
Or... maybe he doesn't want to see her cleavage. Only pervs want to see that. and he's not a perv.
Ask your mom for dressing advice if you're not sure.
In other words you have no idea.
As I understand it the subway didn't say dress like this and you deserve to be assaulted. They are just pointing out the obvious. Dressing as if you want male attention tends to attract it and in some cases from the wrong sort of man. That seems sort of obvious to me as a woman.
I can't think of a pc way to say this so I will risk the slings and arrows of an offended public...
Sex IS a social tool. Dressing in a sexual manner is done for a reason. Please don't tell me you dress that way to be comfortable. If you just wanted to be cool in the summer heat you would not mess with the hair and makeup much less the high heels. There is nothing wrong with being sexy. What I have an issue with is being stupid about it. We as women need to take responsibility for our actions and choices. A good place to start would be to be mature enough to admit we are sending a message that we want men to notice us. (There is nothing wrong with that.) Wearing clothes that are overly sexual on a subway is fine if you have martial arts training but if not you are expecting someone to step in an defend you when you get in over your head.
All the subway is saying is that they cannot be everywhere all the time and women need to be aware that they could be attracting the wrong sort of attention. So ladies dress any way you want BUT if you want to advertise be prepared to protect yourself. Think of it as empowerment. Otherwise you are either being passive aggressive or trying on some subconscious level to live out a damsel in distress fantasy. It is not the subway's job to provide someone to protect you if you do the social equivalent of pouring blood on yourself and walking into a lion's den.
I'm not the one asking a random person on the internet how to dress......................
It's possible to be pretty and fashionable without going down to slut-level (Do you want the attention from someone who thinks sluts are pretty anyway?). I mean there's hair, make up, fabric color... accessories.
Or just eye contact and a smile.
Come on! Think!
...oh yeah, forgot I was on the Internet.
I'm in agreement that unwanted touching is a crime.
On the other hand, it's very true that women who dress in skimpy and reveling clothing are doing it for two reason and two reason only:
1) to get notice by men (and I do enjoy looking, but hands off :).
2) to get noticed by other women, for a variety of reasons.
Oh, sure you women want to say, "It's my right to choose what I want to wear in public..." and bla, bla, bla... All women know why you really do it and most men over 45 know as well... So, . . . go ahead and wear what you have the right to wear. . . But remember, their are perverts out there and you are attracting them as well... They are less likely to restrain themselves because they think what they are doing is normal.
Just because you have the right to do something, doesn't mean you "should" do it.
I did NOT compare sensible dressing to wearing a burka; your failure to understand what I said is idiotic, not the statement itself.
Here it is again, but worded differently - when people do not take responsibility for their actions and fail to control themselves, a whole class and/or group of people are blamed and punished for it; that is where burkas come in.
And just so you know, a beautiful woman could be harassed regardless of what she is wearing. That is a fact. You said, Journal, that you were harassed at a young age while still developing, I am being sincere when I say - IT WASN'T YOUR FAULT. By the way you are reacting to the topic, I doubt anyone has ever said it to you before.
Used to be people thought showing any amount of leg above the ankle branded a woman a slut. I'm pretty sure there's people that still think like this in the US.
Aw Thanks Wowza, that's sweet. :) Fatty you're ignored.
I know it wasn't my fault. A girl who's growing up and inexperienced with the world would not even know about that sort of thing. But I did have loving parents who helped me out. I am a beautiful girl who doesn't get those kind of comments any more, and the way I dress plays a part in that, there's no denying that.
It doesn't mean I won't walk out the door right now and get harrassed. That being the case, why contribute to the situation? I hide my "valuables" and I don't invite strange hands.
You guys keep going back to "dressing slutty". The article made no reference to "dressing slutty". Shorts, a tee shirt and flip flops might be considered "dressing slutty" as that leaves a lot of leg exposed. A sensible skirt of any kind may be considered "dressing slutty". Why are you arguing points of "dressing slutty" when that isn't what the article is about???
But Journal, if you are in fact a beautiful woman with a nice body, no matter how "covered" you are, there will always be some jerk that thinks you're asking for it BECAUSE you are a beautiful woman with a nice body. That is all I was trying to convey.
What I'm trying to convey is that there IS something you can do about it, just as my experience as a woman in the US and in a state where it's a contest who can wear the least clothing. I don't think women who compete in that contest should be complaining about the attention they're getting when a quick and easy change could help solve the issue.
But at least we both agree that I'm pretty. =D
Don't worry, women. You have an ally. I'm your revenge on every straight guy I come across, since we know every one of them has objectified you at some point. I cat-call, wolf-whistle, stare at their packages and make other overtly objectifying gestures and comments to let them know I'm undressing them with my eyes and imagining all the things I'd do with them in a locked, soundproof room. They definitely get a very big taste of their own objectified-by-a-man medicine when I'm around. lol
To dress provocatively is to dress to provoke a reaction. What is provocative? The answer varies from culture to culture. The women that dress to be provocative do so knowingly. If they didn't want attention from men they wouldn't dress to get it.
I don't think women should have to put up with obvious perverse behavior and sexual harassment in a public place but don't expect men to overcome a couple of million years of nature hard wiring them to notice the female form.
@L.J. Rhodes
Ummm.........ok.....How you know they don't like that sort of stuff? Anyways, by all means, dress any way you like women.
LJ, I am cracking up but it won't work the same way. The nice ones will be shocked or offended and the jerks will just get off on it. I still like the joke though.
Journal, you are right that there is something we can do about it. I think the point a lot of people are missing comes from what the clothes symbolize. I am not talking about sex. I am talking about choosing to compete on a sexual level. Dressing in an overly sexualized manner often gives the message one available for that conversation (be it verbal, physical or even just unspoken signals like body language) Dressing (for lack of a better description) like a lady implies you expect better behavior from others. It may not always work but then nothing in life is 100% effective.
Sorry I was wrong before, by all means Women dress as loosely as you please, wear tassels and g strings on the bus or subway, wear a mini skirt and fishnet stockings to work, or maybe a fleshtone body suit Ala George Costanza.
Dressing provocatively doesn't make you invisible.
Heh. Why don't men consider not letting their animal instincts rule them? Think with big head, not little one?
I was walking down the street this morning--city, 9AM, dressed for work--khakis and a blue polo shirt with company logo embroidered on it. Guy looks at me, whistles, howls out 'hey sexy, wanna ride? Now I'm a 5 foot 140 pound Asian chick with coke bottle glasses, nearly legally blind, a broken arm in a cast, twenty pound backpack on my back bulging because I had to bring extra clothes for a company function this evening. I looked like the Hunchback of Notre Dame, complete with myopic squint. And this guy yells this in the middle of the street?
I turned and yelled back 'It's too early in the morning for beer goggles, take them off!' I think like three people who heard me just busted out laughing.
Punisher and PJ,
Oh, it works alright. Makes 'em think. After all, homophobia is just a straight man's fear that a gay man will treat him the way he treats women. Once he's had to actually face that fear by being made to feel exactly the way he's made women feel, he leaves with a bit more respect for them. *grin*
men would absolutely like what lj is saying she does. i'm in no way defending actually sexually assaulting women but when you have juicy written on your ass and have a problem with someone reading it and staring, that's your problem for having writing on your ass.
HATR, I'm pretty sure L.J. is a guy :P
HATR_HURTER, I'm a guy. In the south. ;)
You must have been rockin' some mad confidence!
Way to go, L J. !!!! Homophobia is as you described it ... just a straight man's fear that a gay man will treat him the way he treats women. Dog knows most straight men don't want to be treated the way they treat women!!!
Reddog,
Women know they don't want to be, either, which is why I pride myself on being their revenge against them. lol
Damned if you do damned if you don't... If you LOOK do then they are mad that you are harassing them. If you don't they are mad that you are ignoring them. It is too bad women have lost the notion of being attractive and being appreciated for it.
L.J., you are one strong and secure man, secure in yourself, in your own skin, in your own mind. As a lesbian in the south, I stand as your ally.
lol... Haters gon' hate. Obviously, all the women wearing scantily clad clothing in the summer have nice bodies, and all the fat people are hot and uncomfortable in their warm clothing! Since when do women blame other women for being harassed? Sisterhood has been lost. It's a sad day when a woman takes a man's side rather than another woman's.... =/
Okay, there are pedophiles and child molesters riding public transit. So if you don't want them looking at your children don't take your children on public transportation? How do you know which ones are and aren't? What about those (like me) who don't own a car, have no wish to, and find public transit a much more cost-effective method of transportation?
What about the schoolchildren who get public bus vouchers (in my municipality) to get to school?
A few years back I was walking down a sidewalk in my municipality and not paying much attention, and some guy came up behind me and grabbed a handful of my privates. Mind you, I was not wearing what most people would have considered 'provocative'; jeans, a Hannah Montana t-shirt borrowed from my niece, hair in braids. The only part of me not covered was my face and arms.
Turned out (after I'd chased him down the sidewalk and called police, staying on the phone with 911 till the cops caught up with us--this guy was a registered sex offender, just touched down out of jail for molesting a little ten year old girl. He saw my sneakers with rainbow hearts on them, braided hair, t-shirt and jeans and assumed I was a minor.
Moral of the story; no matter what you wear, there's always the chance that someone you run into will think you look 'attractive' or 'sexy' or 'desirable'. What is 'slutty' to you may not be 'slutty' to someone else--anybody remember staring at naked jungle tribeswomen's breasts in your father's old National Geographic magazines back in the 70's and 80's? (I do.) For us it would be unthinkable--to them, it's the way EVERYONE around them dresses.
What you all have to remember is this is that this is CHINA. You know, communism, dictator, lack of personal freedom--but Shanghai is also a big tourism draw. I will bet that a lot of this perception of a woman in flip flops and shorts as 'slutty' is also due to some culture clash as well. As Chinese women adopt more westernized ideas of apparel, this is China's way of trying to halt that cross-culture contamination.
I agree with everyone else here that thinks this is wrong. Men do not have the right to treat women differently because of the way they dress. Most of my fellow men need to mature the **** up and practice a little of that not so common chivalry I hang onto like a life raft.
Maybe a small amount of looking is fine and obviously some women are seeking that kind of reaction; note I said some not all. However that is as far as you should go unless you are at a bar and/or she tries to pick you up.
Wow, I was pissed when I read the article and then started on the comments and got even angrier. Funny how the ones that say it is the womans fault for dressing a certain way or probably the same men that are hiding a stash of guns to take on the Muslims "who are trying to take over the world" and the same men that think sharia law is sickening and complain about women in muslim countries wearing the burgas...ah irony. Can't tell the difference? There isn't any difference.
Actually at the time I was a little peeved. My boss has a speaking engagement this evening tat starts at 6 and wraps at 9 and I'm going to have to attend this to sell his books and hand out info about the company AFTER I finish my regular workday from 9-5. Had to come to work in regular uniform and change to 'nice clothes' (I HATE having to get prissied up. With MAKEUP! MAJOR UGH!!!!) and not getting home till probably ten given the way public transit is.
Thing is, everyone else at the company who got asked had 'prior commitments' and I was the 'last resort' and I hate it when I get 'guilt-tripped' into doing these things. Last time it was the Governor's Ball and I actually had to BUY A FORMAL GOWN!! IIIICCCKKKK! (found one at the thrift store for $20, so it wasn't a big-hassle-shopping-trip.)
At the moment the guy yelled this in the middle of the street I was thinking, 'at least it's job security, I'll always have a job if I'm willing to do the stuff no one else will. Since I'm a receptionist/biometrics technician/technical writer/janitor on salary, I get paid the same ($800 2x monthly) no matter how many hours I put in. (so is half the other people who got asked but they didn't want to do it. Or maybe they had more sense than to.)
Then he had to go yell THAT in the street and I never even thought about that I was saying before I said it.
And on that note, I have to go catch the bus to that event now...
Reddog, when you grow up gay in the backwoods of Arkansas, you learn a thing or two about self-defense and about people's tendency not to want to risk grave injury over some words and looks. lol
You want to be right or you want to be not harassed?
Any male of a certain age is going to notice a nearby woman not wearing many clothes, the amount of clothes and the amount of noticing are going to vary, but any SENSIBLE woman can find a good zone she feels comfortable with. For the others, they know damn well guys are going to look or they happened to find the biggest creep on the subway, as the poster says not much the government can do about that before hand.
LJ Rhodes said:
"Don't worry, women. You have an ally. I'm your revenge on every straight guy I come across, since we know every one of them has objectified you at some point. I cat-call, wolf-whistle, stare at their packages and make other overtly objectifying gestures and comments to let them know I'm undressing them with my eyes and imagining all the things I'd do with them in a locked, soundproof room. They definitely get a very big taste of their own objectified-by-a-man medicine when I'm around. lol"
LJ, like Amanda said, I'd tell you to take off your beer goggles, I have a mirror, I know what I look like.
I'm a fat woman who wears a bathing suit to the beach and a tank top to mow the lawn (and short and shoes). Does that mean i'm dying to be oogled at or sexually harassed (the two are not always the same thing but can be, depending on the circumstances). I'm with L.J. on this one. Homophobic, disrespecting heterosexuals seem to be the ones hwo are offended and become angry when treated like a woman. I've seen this my entire 50 years on earth.
Dress like a slut; expect to be treated like a slut. Dress in respectful attire, and
you will be treated respectfully. As a male, I am treated quite different in a
suit and tie, vs. when I'm in my grubs. Just because you have a right to dress
in a revealing way doesn't mean it is the smart thing to do. Why do defense
attorneys make their clients dress up when in court, if it doesn't matter how
you dress?
How about civilizing the males and arresting the perverts? That's the message that should be sent. Stop blaming the victims.
Why is the onus on women to dress 'appropriately'? Why isn't society as a whole saying, "Hey, keep your hands to yourself, but not in your pants. At least not in public."?
If I see a man in public with a tight tshirt on or his off altoghether, you don't find me squeezing his pecs for a cheap thrill. I respect his personal space and go about my day. fNo one has the right to tell me or anyone what to wear. Who are you? The Muslim Brotherhood?
Dave Chappelle had it right -
"just because I am dressed like a slut - does not mean I am a slut" - and men, that is true. However.. That is the same as me, Dave Chappelle the comedian, walking around the streets in a police officers uniform. And when someone runs up to me in an emergency, asking for help - i say
"Just beacuse I am dressed this way - DOES NOT MEAN I am a police officer" and ladies - that is mo fo confusing..
The logic is sound:
There are lots of perverts, so it would be most wise to cover up if you want to shield yourself from their 'lurking eyes' and other unwanted advances.
It would be most fortunate if all pervs could be caught or led to change their poor behaviour - but that is unrealistic, it's a far easier solution to just encourage more conservative dress ON TOP OF discourage pervs. Is it required? No. Is the perv at fault? Yes. Could you play a role in protecting yourself? Yes.

Well, society already is saying keep your hands to yourself.....
Society just thinks it would help if women dressed more appropriately in crowded public spaces as well....
Read this article and the one thing that struck me is that some things are universal. We've had the same debate in the US. The same comments, the same blame, the same ....... whatever. One person's insult is another person's compliment. Two women walk down the street and men whistle and hoot. One woman will feel insulted and complain about the pigs. The other woman will appreciate the attention and the fact that the men think she's attractive. Go figure....
The fact is that the clothing police have been around since clothing was invented. Didn't have that problem before, so maybe we should go back to the way the Gods intended people to live. There was no shame and no harassment and no idiotic complaints about whether someone is appropriately hiding their humanity with textiles.
Oh no, I've been wrong all these years. I thought the scantily clad women in the strip clubs wanted me to ogle them.
Lets look at this another way
Strip out the stupid laws, the silly cultural 'supposedtos', if you take a random normal guy and a decently hot girl that is not wearing all that much, chances are the guy is going to notice and like it, and the girl may or may not like the fact that he noticed but she ignores the fact that males are hardwired to look, to notice. Every fiber of our entire being is genetically hard coded to orient our whole lives at finding a lovely lady that wants to get to know us better.
Now we can pile all the laws, rules, supposedtos, manners on top, but deep down a guy can't help but notice and if you still choose to dress like a total skank then of course you are going to draw a lot of unwanted attention. There is a happy medium and it boggles my mind people can't figure that out.
If you are dressed like a slut, people will treat you like a slut. People don't have the right to harass you, but some will and that's a fact.
PJ up there said it perfectly...if you don't want sexual attention, don't dress like you do.
In principle, I agree that a woman should have the right to dress as she pleases, but, in practice.......
There's the old saying, "Don't judge a book by its cover", but, unfortunately, most people do make their initial impressions based on appearance, & may react in accordence to their assumptions. I have found personally that I get treated better by people in general when I dress reasonbly nicely, as opposed to when I wear shabby stuff.
Although, it's tempting to say let women carry pepper gas (the type of canisters that stream a single stream as opposed to the type that spray in a mist). I mean, there's looking, & then there's the bizarre types, like the one shown in the diagram sliding down in his seat 'til he's nearly flat on his back. Don't spray everyone that looks, just the truly perved (is that a word?). You wouldn't even have to hit his face; the stuff penetrates cloth, & wherever it hits, it burns. And burns. And I'm not sure you can wash it out of your clothes. That's a terrible thing to say, isn't it? Encouraging violence. Yes, a corresponding ad campaign aimed at men to mind their manners would be fair, but you'll still get the hardheads that won't get it. So I think some women need to think about exactly why they're wearing a particular outfit to wherever they're going. Or, as my mother would (& did) say, "WHAT the HELL do you think you're doing, going out dressed like that??!!??
Sadly, the women who dress in revealing ways end up with the attention from many pigs in the world. Happens everywhere. Happens to women who aren't dressed in revealing attire, as well. We just hear and read about more harassment of women in revealing clothes -- because that's what the press wants us to believe -- that the predominant subset of women being sexually harassed is harassed "due to their revealing clothing." Most harassment does not occur due to women's wear of scanty clothing. Look at the military -- the uniform is revealing? Not. Harassment and other male behaviors occur because manpigs have perceived power in cultures, decreasing in the US but not gone.
Reminds me of George Carlin; "She was asking for it, she was wearing a tight skirt". Sad state of affairs we are in.
when I was in high school I rode a bus to school. One day the bus was so crowded that some students had to stand in the isle. Laverne Fowler was a good looker with a nice body and was standing right next to me, I was sitting down. I looked over and there it was, in tight blue jeans staring at me. Now, I'd never done it before and Ill never do it again but I pinched Laverne on the bun and before I got my hand back she had slapped the hell out of me.
Saucer...glad to know you wouldn't do that again, in retrospect what you should have probably done as a gentleman would have been to offer the young lady your seat.
So out of curiosity....would you choose not to touch the tushie today because you respect that it would be wrong...or...was the slap that impressive?
txmom32, why should he give up his seat? Sure what he did was wrong but if women don't want old-fashion harassment they shouldn't expect old-fashion courtesy either.
Agree 100%. You want equality or do you want special treatment? Can't have both, also cannot control the actions of others so deal.
"if women don't want old-fashion harassment they shouldn't expect old-fashion courtesy either."
WTF??????????? So you mean if men expect any courtesy from women--then men should allow themselves to be harrassed? The price of courtesy is allowing oneself to be mistreated?
shaking my head...what a bunch of bovine scatology!@
So, it’s a “special courtesy” not to be harassed? How about good ole fashioned
respect for someone? How about taking self-responsibility not to act like a
caveman? Are you saying you can’t be held responsible to not harass someone? Are you kidding?
Gosh Alverant....
Could be that good manners never go out of vogue. Could be that had he offered his seat and stood he could have chatted her up and gotten an invitation instead of a slap.
"Sadly, the women who dress in revealing ways end up with the attention from many pigs in the world"
Ah, but if they looked like Brad Pitt, then the attention would be welcomed. Stop lying to yourself and to others, that's just sad.
Alverant and UDunnoBro are examples of people that have not emotionally matured properly. This country is full of them.
A good slap, done w/ enough force & at the right angle, can knock someone down. (This is to txmom32).
I served in the Air Force for 20 years and always told my commanders that "when men are required to wear a skirt, so will Ia and not until then."
What if you were in the Scottish Air Force, what then?
Women are not allowed to wear kilts. If both genders were required to wear kilts, though, I'd wear one.
I like men in kilts. It gets my imagination going, considering the traditional Scottish "underwear".
As if any backlash by the people in China would influence policy by a government that will silence you for commenting about its political leaders.
Uphill fight against human nature.
Well, that's an easy excuse, isn't it? It's human nature to murder--so why not blame their victims? They were asking to be killed because they were alive.
PUHLEEEEZ!
How about we start teaching men to treat women with respect and not to rape them. It shouldn't matter what a girl wears.
Any self respecting woman would not wear a dress that ends at her bottom. Or a dress that you can see her underwear when she sits down. Or jeans so tight one can not help but see camel toe. In the animal world that is called presenting. Yeah I can hear it now "We aren't animals!!!" Oh really? glad you think so highly of yourself. The call of the wild has not be bred out of mankind that I know of.
So, who decides what clothes should get you harassed and which shouldn't? What is modest? Should we all wear burkas?
It should be up to the woman to decide, but use some common sense. I can hear it now, "Who decides what is common sense?" Argument just to argue
RJG,
You seem to be missing the point. It's up to the (usually) man to keep his hands and comments to himself. Are you saying men are incapable of doing that?
It's also true that if I stumble down the bad side of town blind drunk with $100 bills hanging out of my pockets the guy who rolls me is still a thief.
But I could have prevented the crime by behaving differently.
Likewise, if a chick chooses to dress like a ho she's got no complaint coming when she's treated like one.
Jedi do you even know how to read? Where is rape in this article? Or is looking rape in your book. But by your logic if it doesn't matter what a woman wears it doesn't matter where a man looks.. or do you have a double standard.
It's funny, everyone here seems imo to be a little bit right, even the ones who are getting under the skin of others. Some women do dress that way for attention, some women don't have any self respect, some women get harassed no matter how they are dressed even if they are dressed in men's clothing, some men are more respectful of women than other men, some men are just looking for anyone to victimize and some women are stuck in a victim role. If your subway system is having a problem with increased incidences of sexual harassment, shouldn't the focus be on increasing security and trying to nip the problem in the bud so that you're PAYING customers don't have to be subject to harassment?
To Jed7
Not missing the point at all. There is in our world society a segment that will always be anti social. Most men keep their hands and comments to themselves. On any given day there are potential rapists and pervs prowling the streets. This article addresses the types of subway signs that give suggestions on how a woman can protect herself. Any woman who disses herself and chooses to dress scantily and then go about her daily business out in public runs a risk of meeting one of these vile people and completely ignores the dangers that lurk for the " I can wear what I want anytime anywhere" attitude. The protectors of normal society can't be everywhere all the time and need some help by suggesting modest dress.
This is disgusting. You should NEVER place blame on a victem like this! It gives the perverts doing this an excuse to continue. Women shoulnd't be required to cover up from head to toe to ride the freaking subway without getting molested. Its called self control, and its about time that sick fraction of the male population get it.
No victim should bear the sole responsibility for a crime against him/her. Nor do victims "ask" for crimes to be committed against them. That being said, if you go to a part of town that you know is dangerous and don't take steps to protect yourself, you are not exercising good judgement at the very least. The same principle applies here. If I want to be looked at in that way, I will wear clothes that draw that kind of attention. But if I do so in an environment that I know might well lead to situations where I will put myself in jeopardy, then I do bear some level of responsibility for my own actions. No one made me wear revealing clothes, and no one made me go someplace where my safety and well-being was at risk. I consciously chose to dress that way and go to that place. I am therefore at least partially responsible for what happens. We as a society cannot continue to blame others for our mistakes/poor judgement. We must be responsible for our own actions. We must be prudent.
So if I'm going somewhere and rely on public transportation, I should pack the outfit I want to wear later, and dress frumpy on the train, simply because some people don't understand how to act like a decent human being?
I do understand what you are saying, swtaprl, about taking precautions to protect yourself, but where do you draw the line? Even if all women started wearing long pants and turtlenecks on the subways, there would still be perverts. And then they would still find something to blame on these women.
Hey, I'm all for any one dressing however they want. BUT, if you are seeking attention, don't get pissed off when you get it.
Mindy123465,
I agree. But look at it this way:
If you leave your car unlocked with the keys in it and you come back to see your car is stolen, do you think you have "some" responsibility?
...or
If you travel on a mass transit system and you have $5,000 in $20 bills cash stuffed in your pockets and you get robbed, do you think "maybe" you should have acted differently?
...but
You seem to think that a lightly tanned runway model, 5' 7", 128 lbs, wearing a g-string skin tight camel-toe shorts, bikini top in flip-flops traveling in a subway for some reason is 100% safe...
...and
You say people are blaming the victim.
Do you get it yet? Nobody is blaming the victim. We are saying that "maybe" women should consider their actions a bit.
So if you're dressed very sexy/slutty, and I look at you and get a very noticeable boner that's OK right.
@Mindy123465
No one is blaming the victim. But have you heard about this thing called "Responsibility"? JWA sums it correctly.
Since when are women who only dress like hookers the only ones being harassed?? I'm hoping you are either guys, or just live in nice shletered areas where this doesn't happen. I can't wear even office appropriate long skirts and buttoned-up blouses without getting hollared at on some streets. What else do you want women to do?? Are all women being irresponsible by simply being in public? This isn't an isolated male behavior. And putting any blame or fault, or claming that they are just not being "responsible" is plain stupid.
Mindy. this article isn't about women who simply get harassed.
It's about pointing out the responsibility of doing what you can to protect yourself. If you know most guys are gross and will be gross to you and you care, dress better. If you don't care...continue. But don't act like it's some crazy unexpected thing.
It's not your fault if guys are whistling...but you didn't do anything to stop it either. You can wait all you want for men to change and blame the guys (Rightly so too), but if you're really annoyed and pissed about it, you can do what you can to curb it. BE PROACTIVE.
an overwieght person can complain all they want about people staring and laughing, and they have a valid point and right to do so. But if you walk in on them shoving a tray of oreos down there throat it's a little hard to have sympathy for their plight...
Wait until you are over 50 and you become invisible to men.
I am not in any way referring to actual harrassment here, but some of us would love to hear that wolf whistle directed at us again...
I love how it's the Shanghai subway system's fault that some percentage of men in pretty much every society on earth are perverts.
HELLOO!!! They aren't CONDONING the behavior of men that harass women. They are simply stating the obvious: it happens, not because the woman who dresses scantily is ACTUALLY inviting a pervert to grope her, but because the pervert delusionally THINKS she is.
This is like getting mad at a cop that encourages people to lock their doors at night, because an unlocked door means they are at higher risk of being robbed while they're out of the house, or late at night.
The cop isn't saying that an unlocked door is an INVITATION to be robbed, and the cop isn't JUDGING people that leave their doors unlocked while they're out of the house. But HELLO!! You're stupid if you do it!
Common sense, people. Use common sense.
Jay you are right, its not an invitation, but it is definitely a stimulus. The harassment could be as minor as leering (to me this means staring at), which would make about 90% of the male population guilty, to something as serious as rape. There are ways to dress comfortably without displaying too much. As far as I'm concerned, any woman who dresses in such a manner as to show off here boobs and legs, is doing so deliberately. Where it's a conscious or subconscious decision could be debated.
We should eradicate ALL women. May be then some "men" will not be "tempted" by the female form. May be then we can do without head to toe cover ups of Muslim women and the MALE element desiring to "stick it into anything that moves" can be relieved knowing they would never screw another man, or will they? Our male dominated culture has proved to be as deviant as the worst possible nightmares one can dream up. Us sane people can enjoy a woman's company and not have to dominate her, Conservatives cannot. I would love to see some girls take the hand off off some groper in close quarters, mace them in the eyes, and kneecap the sucker, then we all can know who is a pervert easier.
So your solution to aggression is violence? Pathetic. My guess is if you saw a woman being attacked you'd either pretend you didn't notice, or wet yourself and run.
random ranting from a raving loon
Its funny how men don't feel the same heat, I never see tons of men scantly clothed on summer days yet I see every other woman dressed like a whore (summer or winter). One policy if you dress like a whore you shall get that treatment if you dress like a lady you will be treated as one. Showing every thing but the nipples and then wondering why people are staring at them is just down right stupid. It is my belief and experience that the women who dress like sluts, do so to attract attention and very frequently get it. I know it and you know it.
Wow bfromNJ I really hope you don't have any daughters because Lord knows how crummy you've made them feel about themselves and their bodies.
Men don't feel the same heat, because, for them, dressing provocatively means having their pants hanging off and that just makes us women want to avert our eyes, not look at them.
Huh - I guess I wear too many clothes, because I was never harassed in Shanghai, but then it was hard to compete with what some of the local women wore into the office (sheer white dress w/ sheer white undergarments made even me blush - I couldn't make this outfit up - I don't think anyone got work done that day).
@tz-3189354 Actually I don't have daughters, and if I had any I would teach them to respect themselves as well as respect others and carry themselves decently in society, and I will teach the same thing to my son (hes only 4mos) and that includes proper attire, I will tell them if you want to the part then dress the part, present yourself so people will take you seriously. what about that you Fing morons don't get?
What about men with their shirts off in summer? YOu don't call this scantily clothed???
Once again you're stating that men can't possibly be expected to keep their hands or inappropriate comments to themselves? Pathetic!
I fully expect men to keep their paws to themselves. I don't conform to the US sexist culture, nor do I pander to the expectation of men. I reject men's and women's inappropriate comments and gestures --
"What about men with their shirts off in summer? YOu don't call this scantily clothed???"
I do, but hey if women likes to look. Why not. Basically we are very visual creatures both men and women, and we are attracted to what we see and like. The naked or partly naked body is very attractive. Now if you're 400+ pounds that's a whole another subject.
The number of men who walk around with shirts off is so small compared to women who dress like sluts that its not even an issue. However to me, men without shirts or with only undershirts is just as despicable. But the lame @$$ excuse that women are making that this is because of heat, is completely bogus the same women dress like sluts in the winter as well. I read one comment where someone said that what if a woman was dressed scantly because she left the house in hurry, you will almost never catch a man in his boxers because he had to leave in a hurry. So stop the nonsense you will be treated exactly how you present yourself.
b from NJ. I must admit i cracked up about the guys in their boxers thing. I remember a few years back i carpooled. my carpool driver picked me up at 530 am every day, and of course i had just showered at 530 am. so when i ran out to his car everyday, usually i had maybe 1/3 of my clothes on ... yes, he was a he and i am a she. so i'd dress in the car on the way to work. he didn't care about my lack of attire ... never mentioned it or oogled or anything. i would tell my co-workers, who would get a laugh. usually someone would stop me before i made an ass out of myself by walking in with my shirt inside out, so at least by the time i got to my cube my clothes were right side out and on forwards - not backwards.
The # of men who walk around with shirts off is just as disgusting to me as the woman who walks around wearing clothes that appear to have been cheated of the sewing cycle.
ps shirt or no shirt, poorly clothed or otherwise - neither gives another human being the right to sexually harass one another. As for the guy who thinks he's hot so he must therefore walk around shirtless, he needs to spend his time at home, in front of his full length mirror. Women, in general, do not want to see shirtless men. Women, in general, are turned off by it.
I pointed and laughed at a guy's crotch one time and he chased me for a long way. (I was a fast runner in my younger days). He was mad as all heck - so men want to be harassed because every man is dog's gift to women??? Doubt it.
I agree with bFrom NJ
It's all about respecting yourself (man OR woman) enough to dress appropriately in public.
How does anyone get " defending harrassment" out of that?
Speak for yourself, Reddog, a guy in good shape, I'll look at, the fewer clothes the better. Notice I said "good shape". I like a nice cheast. I personally find it sad that the current fashion in men's swimwear consists of those baggy board shorts. I like mens' swimsuits that let me see masculine contours, a Speedo even w/ the right body.
Reminds me of a judge ruling in the 60s on a rape case; the judge rules that the rape was caused by what the woman was wearing (in this case she was wearing jeans, nothing short or exposing, just plain old jeans).
This seems pretty typical. My daughter was reprimanded in junior high for wearing a skirt, because the boys would congregate under the open stairways and look up the girls' skirts. I asked why they weren't punishing the boys, and they looked at me like I was crazy.
Chances are your daughter was actually being reprimanded for violating the schools dress code, which probably clearly states that skirts aren't allowed due to the architecture of the building creating a decency issue when young, hormonal boys figure out they can take a peek by looking up.
Like all of the girls when I was in school crying foul when they were told they couldn't wear halter tops, tank tops, and thin-strap tops that show off shoulders and cleavage.
No, Brad. Chances are the girl in the situation was being held accountable for boys' behavior ... the way our society for eons has attempted to hold women accountable for men's behavior, yes, even rape.
Chances are at least one of the girls knew about it and liked the attention too.
Chances are the guy was delusional and dreamt that the girl liked the attention. The first incorrect notion is the idea that the girl must want the guy's attention. Oh, of course she must have wanted it. That's the defense in a whole lot of sexual assault cases in this country, too.
To quote the great Peter Griffin on Family Guy:
Looking at the picture I am trying to imagine an American woman dressed like that riding the subway here. No matter how hard I tried though she was always 22 sizes bigger. In America obesity protects. That was sarcasm. In reality I would like to think i could grab a fistful of Benjamins and walk through any neighborhood in America without being robbed as it is my right to be safe from crime, the same way women have the right to be free from crime and harassment. I don't do it because I owe it to myself to accept the world as is and to keep myself safe. Women might consider acting the same, or least not being surprised when their failure to protect themselves is abused by others.
inappropriate headline titling by msnbc. said Subway on the main page instead of shanghai subway. made you think i might be the u.s. sandwich chain.
I agree!
All the laws and regulations you want to put in place can't change human nature. If you dress in a way that shows off your junk, most likely people are going to check out your junk. Duh!
Always get a kick out of women showing a few inches of cleavage and complaining when men are caught looking...
I don't think we're really talking about looking at things that are readily being exposed. We're talking about crossing the line into looking up skirt or down shirts (to things that aren't being publically exposed), touching and vulgar comments. You can't possibly be suggesting that men shouldn't be expected to keep those types of things to themselves, can you?
I grew up in Manhattan and I could walk past a construction site wearing a snowsuit and I would still be yelled to. That said, you cannot expect to wear 'clothes' with your body hanging out and not be looked at. I wouldnt be caught dead looking like that. Screams desperate for attention.
If people don't take responsibility for their own actions then they need to expect an adverse reaction. If they do not understand this perhaps they should take a course in remedial common sense.
I never in my life thought I would ever see diagrams outlining "beaver shot sight lines" in a public transportation venue.
I know it is sad "butt" I am LMFAOROTF at the idiocy of a huge percentage of the world population!!!!
Well, is up to her what she is looking for! If she just want to feel lighter on clothes, it's up to her. I would never wear like that, in fact I never did. But hey, beaches and amusements parks around the world are full of the bad guys too, they know where to go if they really want to see too much skin. This girl ? Doesn't seem to be trying to show something, she just get off her house in a hurry...lol that's what looks like. Why people care so much about the others? Mind you own business, if anything bad happen to any woman because of what she is wearing, I really don't think was just because of that, I think is just because she was at a wrong place and the wrong time. Life in unpredictable. May God be with us all the time and the angels surround us and those girls too. :-)
There is a huge difference between looking at someone and sexually harrassing them. Leering at someone, commenting on them, touching, etc. are all out of line. Everyone should be able to wear anything they want that does not violate sane decency laws and not be harrassed. This applies to either sex and any age. Notice that I said sane laws because I don't agree with the ridiculous regulations in some mid-east countries.
What should happen and what does happen are entirely different things. Should women be able to dress provocatively without ay repercussions? Yes. Is that realistic? No.
Women who are scantily clad dress that way for attention. That's the bottom line. So they shouldn't mind in the least if someone is ogling them. They deliberately dressed that way because they were anticipating attention from somewhere.
However, I wholeheartedly agree that anything beyond looking isn't acceptable. No touching, no nothing, no exceptions.
Melanie the point is with regard to your "That's the bottom line" there are some bottoms I draw the line in being forced by circumstances to view. Have you ever seen a handsome beaver? Provocative perhaps. Taken in the context of this story somewhat clinical. In other circumstances - no problem.
To all woman posters, please, please, please, do not stop wearing those revealing outfits. One of the great joys of manhood is ogling scantily clad women, especially if they have an attractive figure. And before you come back with both barrels blazing at me, get real. You dress that way for one and only one reason, and that is to present yourself as attractive to the males of the species. I absolutely agree that any male who touches or verbally harasses any woman stranger, for any reason, ought to be taken out behind the barn and given a good butt kicking. But please don't tell me you don't enjoy being ogled when you wear those types of clothing, because it is simply not true.
Correct! It's a story old as time. Women like to show and men like to look.
I agree with you, JohnnyB.
We're talking about harrassment here. Seems a lot of people on here do not know the difference. Therein lies the problem!
wear what you want, show what you want, and maybe get exactly what you "DON'T" want. It's totally up to you. No complaints later please.
No one is ever responsible for being sexually harassed.
However, if women wear clothes like that, then expect people to look at what you're revealing and not get upset about it.
Some Guy has it right. Looking and touching are two completely different things. You can't expect people not to look if you're flashing skin all over the place. Just like how people will look at someone with a 8-inch pink mohawk or a huge tattoo on their face. Yet, you wouldn't just reach out and pet someone's mohawk, would you? Unless your knocking a huge bug or something off someone's back, you do not have the right to touch them. Sometimes you just have to learn to control yourself.
At least one country in the world has some common sense and realizes it isn't up to the authorities to try to control human nature.
This is hilarious. The originator of that sign was sincerely trying to help women avoid confrontation with pervs. It was only intended to help the people who are most outraged about it.
Funny $hit.
It could also be a how-to-guide for pervs as well tho. The smart perv will see to what scale the caricatures are then measure the distances and presto chango they have some magical numbers they can sell to other pervs.
I always find these kinds of info graphics weird because they often can be used by those committing the crimes to do so more easily.
I ran across this in a book by a popular author. I'm not going to say his name less the quote be readily dismissed. But if you know who it's by just from the style then oh well. In any case, when I read it, it stopped me in my tracks and I read it over and over. Whenever I read an article like this one it makes me think of this line, and I can't help but laugh a little at the incredulous reactions from women (and some men too) regarding the 'primitive' actions commited by men towards women.
"For men, I think, love is a thing formed of equal parts lust and astonishment. The astonishment part women understand. The lust part they only think they understand. Very few - perhaps one in twenty - have any concept of what it really is or how deep it runs. That's probably just as well for their sleep and peace of mind. And I'm not talking about the lust of satyrs and rapists and molesters; I'm talking about the lust of shoe-clerks and high-school principals."
What author is that? He makes a great point, and has a good grasp on reality, I expect. I hope he goes on further to suggest that lust in men is natural and needs to be addressed in society in terms of systems for appropriate outlets, and reduction of basically sexist prohibition laws and social stigmitization against natural male sexuality.
Ahh, of course it was him. hehe, should've known. I was hoping for a commentary on modern gender issues from the male perspective. Oh, well.
Lol I did warn you...
You'll get a resounding eyeroll from all the literary snobs in the room if you quote him, but damned if he isn't one of the best writers of the everyday.