unlike western nations the chinese are more interested in what happens in China .. in 4 years there economy will surpass ours and in 8 years there technology will surpass ours .... our economic and world leadership will suffer greatly when the world no longer looks to America for solutions but look to China ... Who do we owe our present debt to ?? when the chinese decide to take steps to improve there water shortage or any other shortage they may have .. no one will be able or willing to stop them

timewonttell - that grim tale you tell is frightening, it just lacks a lot of logic.

First, China holds a lot of US currency - and should we somehow tank, so does China.

Second, the bulk of China's "emerging economy" is because we shipped our production over to them. When we can longer import the cheap crap they make, who will China sell that crap to?

Third, all of this assumes that natural disasters dont take us all down first. We've all (every nation) spent so much time, money and energy fighting "boogeymen and terrorists"...that we've got nothing left, including boots on the ground, to deal with the natural disasters.

If China doesnt learn from our poor example, they'll suffer the same pitfalls. Taking care of wants before needs, spells disaster.

The only problem with your theory 'timewonttell' is that almost all of Chinas technology has been reversed engineered from either us or Japan. Once we are out of the picture, the world will realize how stupid (but hard working) the chinese are and that their stuff is crap. That still wont put us in a good position as all of our resources will be owned and mined by the chinese but hey, capitalism is great when combined with greed. YEAH for us!

timewon'ttell - Hmmmm? Heard the exact same rhetoric about the Japanese 40 years ago.

A Veteran - Yeah, luckily for us the Japanese aren't a bunch of d!cks.

@timewont-Are you saying that the Chinese will ship (or otherwise transport) our water over there? ala Monty Python's Grail quote about coconuts migrating???

Surely, you jest.

@timewonttell... You said, "in 8 years their technology will surpass ours". No, it won't. China's technology base is not "inventive" (meaning they do not invent or engineer new technology). Their base is in "cloning" or "copying" existing technology. That is why they are a manufacture based technology and why we have moved our manufacturing facilities over there. But even with all that, they still cannot seem to put out the same quality as U.S. manufacturers can. Trust me on this. I work for a Tech company that still has engineering but have shipped most of our manufacturing to China. And we have to keep looking over their shoulder because they will NOT produce the same quality systems. (They will do it cheap as hell though).

China makes crap so you will buy it .. America makes crap so you will buy it ... Ronald Regan said America will become a service nation and that is what we are .. We dont manufacture anything except military products .. and some autos ..Barb if china wants the water from tibet they will take it and no one will be able to stop them .. Calvin ..China sends there brightest and best around the globe to learn there technology ..when have you bought anything made in America or China that was high quality .. jessica the chinese wont tank if our currency fails..they will raise interest rates and we will pay with higher taxes and pain at the pump they allready hold enough of our IOUs to demand payment

sanjua,

That should be, "China will do what-ever it takes to secure any needed resources... Ask any of their neighbors."

As China develops their space based weapons systems and 'Blue Water' Naval forces, few countries will be immune...

unlike western nations the chinese are more interested in what happens in China .. in 4 years there economy will surpass ours and in 8 years there technology will surpass ours

Total BS, the US economy is about 15 trillion, China's is about 6 Trillion. There is NO WAY they will triple their economies size in 4 years. The other part is even more incorrect and unsupportable.

ScoMata,

I agree. And I predict China will crumble as a nation before they even get close to being #1. You can only suppress so much before the citizens have enough.

China is already building dams in Tibet and diverting water from India to China...

BTY - The Himalaya Glaciers are INCREASING in ice volume, just like Greenland, and the Antarctic. The IPCC was wrong - AGAIN.

The ARGOS buoy system that became operational during the early 2000s has recorded a negative trend in the total world Ocean heat content. see http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/2009/03/the-ocean-really-is-cooling/ and http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/10/09/ocean-heat-content-dropping/

The Antarctic (worlds largest ice mass) reached the highest levels ever recorded during 2007. see http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/view.php?id=40042 & http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=F1F2F75F-802A-23AD-4701-A92B4EBBCCBF

The Greenland (world second largest ice mass) has increased in volume over the last 50+years. see http://nsidc.org/data/docs/daac/nsidc0092_greenland_ice_thickness/parca_paper1.pdf

The Himalaya mountain glaciers are increasing in size. see http://news.discovery.com/earth/himalayas-glaciers-shrink.html

Seem like some good links.

Here is what the last one telling concludes with:

Fountain said that similar trends were evident in some Scandinavian glaciers during the 1990s, which benefited from increased storminess and precipitation coming off the North Atlantic Ocean. Researchers have also found that glaciers on California's Mt. Shasta have been growing for decades. And glacier recession has been blunted in the mountains of Oregon and Washington state because of increased moisture from the warming Pacific Ocean.

In the Karakorams, the uptick in glacier mass has come with a welcomed perk. The mighty Indus River, which flows out of China and nourishes northern India and much of Pakistan has experienced an increase in discharge.

But it's not likely to last.

"As temperatures continue increasing, they will overtake additional mass provided by snow," Fountain said. "The freezing level will keep rising, and glaciers will melt."

notsojingo,

The temperature averages in Antarctica have been falling for the last 30+years... It is currently -72 c & dew point is -75 c in Vostok and the extended high is expected to be a balmy -52 c, not much ice melting... see http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=-78.44999695,106.87000275

The average yearly temperature in Greenland is -4 c and has been falling for the last 90+years... see http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/greenland_temp.html

Not many sites or references for the Himalaya mountain glaciers you have to refer to the satellite pictures as the author did... I will ask my daughters fiancee in two weeks, he just finished a climbing expedition to the Himalaya's and they will be visiting me in BKK...

The world heat content has been DECREASING for the last decade as the Oceans have cooled and the ice levels have INCREASED. This is verified by a study published in 'Science' by Maosheng Zhao and Steven Running. Global plant growth has decreased in the past decade, reversing trends observed over the past 20 years. see http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/climate-change/are-plants-around-the-world-really-dying

NASA and NOAA have admitted to their records being in error due to faulty satellite data and the changes to the data base for the World temperature averages...

NOAA spokesman, Program Coordinator, Chuck Pistis declined to state how long the fault might have gone undetected. Nor would he comment on speculation as to the damage done to the credibility of a decade’s worth of temperature readings taken from the problematic ‘NOAA-16’ satellite.

see http://www.climatechangedispatch.com//climate-reports/7491-official-satellite-failure-means-decade-of-global-warming-data-doubtful & http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/10/hottest-year-data-meltdown/?apage=2.

But being a educator with climate experience/training you already know this...

But being a educator with climate experience/training you already know this...

Just Quoted your link, not you, another educator with climate experience/training. I'm still working on my core courses.

That is why I supply the references, so you can pick and choose what you want to believe.

Ask you instructors how they become 'tenured'and the importance of publishing articles and obtaining grants. Then you will see why so many people cater to the currently acceptable beliefs and do not buck the system...

A hint that helped me during a research project on a archaeological dig, while in college. Find out what the Program Leader is currently writing about, then base your research paper on a subject that will help them... I received a 'A' and they even supplied some research leads...

That is why I supply the references, so you can pick and choose what you want to believe.

Thanks for the links. And the permission to interpret them personally. And congrats on the "A". We are all very proud of you.

(-;

Malthus figured this out over 100 years ago. Populations naturally expand to the limit of the resources which are present. When the limits are reached things start to get ugly.

I tend to agree ... industrialized nations should have a 2 child limit ....

However ... look at Africa ... drought, famine, and disease ... they are still hammering out kids every 9 months like clock work.

Not a pretty picture.

ooops...

Yes, no issue is as vital to life as man currently knows it as, "Zero Population Growth". Just recently, one of this nation's most ecologically astute scientists said that everything Washington is doing is headed in the wrong direction. Man's mushrooming human hordes are literally devouring the natural and real Earth that seeded all life and maintains all life, including man's, right today.

The numbers will naturally reduce with limits in place. But what will the people who have kids just so they can leech off the working taxpayers ever do? With greed like that, do you think they really care about what overpopulation will do to their children and grandchildren 100 years after they're dead? Greed accounts for more than 99% of this planet's problems, and short of the annihlation of all humankind, there's nothing that can or will be done to stop it.

Steve841, It is not just in Africa (and I am not quite sure why you zeroed in on that continent[yes, Sarah, it IS a continent and NOT a country]) but here in the good ol' US of A, where as recently as a few months past some of my more Conservative friends were circulating an email that called for white people (and I use this as an example of my tolerance for views abhorrently different to mine) to start having MORE children so that 'people of color' (my phrase-theirs was too ugly for me to repeat) would not make (and here I use exact phrasing) "us the minority".

And then there are Religions (can you believe it?) that discourage birth control (Catholicism) and/or encourage families to have as many children as possible (Mormonism).

I could go on but I believe you get the point, Mr. oops (sic).

...and skor154... What in the hell has "Washington" and whatever it is "doing" got to do with ANYTHING? I cannot tell if this is a political snipe or just another doomsday snark.

Barbara:

I'm sure you know people that have made the racially insensitive remarks you are using as examples of "conservative thinking", and while I completely agree that such comments are inappropriate, do you really think there is a correlation between the fact that African birthrates remain dangerously high and Americans (conservative or not) that talk about ways to combat not becoming a future minority by having more kids???? Do you really think there are enough Americans choosing to have more children just to reach some kind of warped racial equilibrium? Show me facts - because I don't believe your "man on the street wild ass comment from racially insensitive friends" really amounts to much.

Also, your view of Catholics is quite dated. Although discouragement of birth control other than natural female cycle management is still a Catholic "official" policy, I don't know of many American Catholics that (1) follow Catholic official policies closely (general), or (2) follow Catholic birth control policies (specific). Yes, I am a Catholic, grew up Catholic, went to Catholic High School and Law School, the majority of people I know are Catholics, I've read extensively about Catholics and their beliefs and how much they follow the Catholic rules, and believe I can speak to this subject. Be careful with your generalizations, you lose credibility when you accept "what someone told you" and pass it on as fact.

norecord-For the record (pun intended), what I stated was an actual example of what a good friend sent me. Yes, she is a Republican and a more Conservative one, at that. However my comment, read in the manner implied, not inferred, was not an indictment of all Republicans/Conservatives being racist (closet or otherwise) but simply an example of outrageous and reactionary thinking from WHATEVER source. So please do not get your knickers in a twist.

Secondly, as a co-Catholic, I spoke, as you well know and admit, about Catholic DOGMA. The Rules passed down from the Pope, God's voice on earth, Ex Cathedra, and all that. I did not belittle, berate or otherwise disparage Catholics as individuals or as a group. So again, un-twist your underwear and stop trying to bait what was a valid but admittedly innocuous comment.

I could also find it quite 'revealing' that you did not bring up my point about Mormons, but then I would just be descending to your level of discourse.

Regards

Skor: "Yes, no issue is as vital to life as man currently knows it as, "Zero Population Growth"."

You just summed up the entire green movement over the past 40 years. Every thing they fight for is born out of disgust for the human race. Global warming is just the latest man-made disaster de jour. They live and breathe for convenient fiction's to blame on the human race.

Barbara "And then there are Religions (can you believe it?) that discourage birth control (Catholicism) and/or encourage families to have as many children as possible (Mormonism)."

So what? Has that now become the ultimate sin, encouraging children? I'm neither Catholic or Mormon, but I find your assumption that anyone who ("can you believe it") does not see things thru your PC glasses is somehow beneath your enlightened state of being. I also found your explanation to record condensending and intellectually insulting.

Tod-To paraphrase a familiar quote 'I do not see how YOU could be insulted in an intellectual manner'.

I find you just tearing for a fight. I will not give it to you. You and your silly comments have just made the ignore list.

Barb:

Just trying to keep the argument on track - I think you went off the rails. Here is a summary:

Wychdoctor: We are all overcrowding the earth, not just China -we (the world) needs a plan to do something about it!

Steve: Agree - Industrialized nations should have 2 child limit, but look at Africa, they seem out of control

Barb: Steve - why pick on Africa, my friends are circulating emails about having more kids to make sure whites stay represented properly! And, certain religions promote no birth control or encourage having as many kids as possible

Me: Barb - I don't think your friends' crazy circulated email constitutes a "plan" to continue overcrowding the earth - why don't we try to address real problems, like Steve noted - example countries in the continent of Africa. Also, I really don't see Catholics as an obstacle to overcrowding planning.

Barb: No record - I wasn't calling all republicans racist and wasn't slamming catholics. Don't get your knickers in a twist.

Me: Barb - calm down - and don't act like such a victim - just thought you got a little off track. While your friends "actual email" may signal that some groups of people may not be on board with population control planning, and I agree that we have a lot of work to do before we can get a worldwide plan in order, I don't think your comments were that helpful in focusing on the issue. There will ALWAYS be people that are in impediment to population control planning. If you focus on the intractable minds, like racial outliers or religious dogma, you are likely wasting your time. I believe it would be better to focus on getting a consensus of like minded individuals and groups that can actually implement change.

Also, I have no experience or knowledge of mormon dogma or practices, so I didn't comment. I can only speak to what I know.

China has had a decreasing Population Growth Rate for DECADES! http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.google.com/publicdata%3Fds%3Dwb-wdi%26met_y%3Dsp_pop_grow%26idim%3Dcountry:CHN%26dl%3Den%26hl%3Den%26q%3Dchina%2Bpopulation%2Bgrowth%2Brate&rct=j&sa=X&ei=GHrmTb7LJdPegQeZuPiECw&ved=0CCwQ4wEwAA&q=china+population+growth+rate&usg=AFQjCNGY8k2xrfirBuqhGfhurTy4fHdrFA

The United States, on the other hand, is increasing population at a greater, though decreasing somewhat, rate for years. http://www.census.gov/population/www/pop-profile/natproj.html

norecord- I can only imagine how enervating it must be for others to read the back-and-forth discourse between you and I. Having said that I will make what I hope will be the final comment between us.

Your "summary" certainly paints your comments as the 'most illuminating' and diminishes everyone else's most especially mine. I would, if I were you, try to re-read the entire thread and this time more objectively (read: leave your self ingratiating ego in the next room). As I stated, my comment WAS a valid but innocuous addition to the thread and certainly NOT worth your rude rebuff.

As for labeling me a 'victim'Mr. Junior Psychiatrist, not that I need to share my life and self affirming bona fides with an aggressive, irritating and anonymous blogger who feels the need to hide behind a sobriquet. However, it MAY encourage you in future intercourse to be much more Gentle and Reflective rather than, forgive me for repeating myself, getting your knickers in a twist with knee-jerk comments and poorly thought out responses.

For you elucidation: at the age of 3 and for the next 18 months I, as well as my older sister, were sufferers of child abuse of the worst possible kind, then at the tender age of 22 I was hospitalized for my first brain tumor which left me partially paralyzed and recurred twice more 35 years later in a cancerous state. These are merely circumstances or, if you may, obstacles of my life that I overcame to be a successful Mother, Wife, Supportive Sister, Friend and Daughter, Veteran, Business Person(in a profession dominated at that time by men), Artist and Progressive Activist. HARDLY, the definition of a victim. So spare me your misinformed disdain.

______________________

Agreement and apologies to WDG, MM and a hearty thumbs up to notsojingo for comment and content.

Regards

Wow Barb - at least my last comment addressed the article a little bit. You sure are in attack mode - you scored way more adjectives than I - you win! I get it - you didn't like my comments.

I applaud you for coming through such a horrific history to gain the successes you have clearly earned. A minor point, I didn't call you a victim - I said stop acting like a victim - there is a difference - name calling is what you are doing and it is the first rule of what NOT to do in an argument. If you didn't like my summary, do your own - don't ask me to re-do mine - that is just lazy. (To clarify, not calling you a lazy person - just calling your actions in this particular instance lazy)

See ya next time on the Vine -

And how do you suggest, logistically speaking, that we get the desalinated H2O from the processing centers to the interiors of the continents? Who will pay for that all? We can't even get clean drinking water from local rivers to many places in, say, Africa or South America. What, are we supposed to melt the ice caps and ship giant barges of water to fulfill the needs of 6+ billion people? Its not logistically possible or sustainable.

Just like with every other true looming environmental disaster, the answer to the challenges faced will be a multitude of local, specialized solutions that focus on the specific area in question. You cannot possibly solve a challenge like this in one fell swoop....different areas have different needs and will require different solutions. It will have to be a local effort, not a global one.

What, are we supposed to melt the ice caps and ship giant barges of water to fulfill the needs of 6+ billion people? Its not logistically possible or sustainable. - They did it in Brewster's Millions, just drop an engine into an iceberg and sail it to China ;)

"Jim-792457

You guys do know that 2/3 (or more) of the earth is still covered with water? Desalination would still get us a few million years. You planning on being around then or on the moon?"

I agree. We can destroy our environment and the consequences be damned. We need to start looking, now, for a place to send our elite to, once we have raped and pillaged what is left of our planet.

I don't believe, though, that we have as long as a few million years. More like a few hundred years, at the rate we are destroying the planet. Anybody seen Waterworld? I'm staking my claim to Dry Land, while I still can. I should reap a tidy profit, by selling lots in a couple of hundred years.

PuddleDuck, just a few months ago, one of this nation's most respected scientists said, that man will be extinct in one hundred years. Modern man's unnatural changes to the Earth are as life giving and supporting as the tumble of rocks on Mars.

PuddleDuck,

The elite will never make it to their safe havens... They too are dependent on access to the world resources and societies support systems...

The un-educated masses are not buying the AGW hysteria as the IPCC's projections are FAILING to materialize...

The CO2 tax ponzi scam is FAILING as more and more World Governments refuse to buy into it...

You will get points if you can answer one question... What is the leading cause of death in China???
I will give you a few hints, it is not due to; AGW, starvation, their polluted environment, old age, or social engineering...

BTY - A few of us have already turned our backs on Modern Western Society and live in places that have existed for thousands of years as a successful society...

What is the leading cause of death in China??? ...I will give you a few hints, it is not due to; AGW, starvation, their polluted environment, old age, or social engineering...

Cancer. Directly linked to pollution, largely due to burning of fossil fuels and industrial waste.

More than 450 "cancer villages" have emerged across China in recent years, according to an analysis by geographer Lee Liu published in Environment magazine in 2010. These communities -- where an unusually high number of residents are struck by the same types of cancer -- tend to cluster in poorer areas along polluted waterways or downstream from industrial parks. Whereas much of China's early industrial development took place along the coast, factories more recently have been locating where labor is cheaper and environmental oversight is less strict, pushing the so-called "cancer belt" inland.

See the table at the bottom of the article, from the National Bureau of Statistics of China.

And while I agreed with you yesterday about biofuels, AC, I believe that we both know that the world's ice is not increasing, nor the world's oceans warming, as you said above.

It's simply not true.

Due to the massive numbers of people being infected with HIV due to the mixing of blood products during blood donations during the 1990's. A indication of the fine medical services available in China.

According to WHO it is AIDS and TB related AIDS...

I'm not in a position to verify the ARGOS data, but my new neighbor is on the UN IPCC councel... He concurs with my findings on AGW...

I presented the data from NASA, NOAA, and other International organizations. Do you have data that reflutes their findings??? Then present it...

According to WHO it is AIDS and TB related AIDS...

You might have a source that supports that, but I can't find one. This is what I've found:

• TB is one of the three leading causes of death worldwide due to an infectious disease.
• An official report published in February 2009 stated that in 2008, for the first time, HIV/AIDS was China's leading cause of death among infectious diseases.

There's a difference between 'leading cause of death' and 'leading cause of death due to infectious disease'. I think you may have just not seen that qualifier.

As for:

Do you have data that reflutes their findings??? Then present it...

What findings do you want to start with?

Here are a few of the findings refluting a warming planet.

The temperature averages in Antarctica have been falling for the last 30+years... It is currently -72 c & dew point is -75 c in Vostok and the extended high is expected to be a balmy -52 c, not much ice melting... see http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=-78.44999695,106.87000275

The average yearly temperature in Greenland is -4 c and has been falling for the last 90+years... see http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/greenland_temp.html

Not many sites or references for the Himalaya mountain glaciers you have to refer to the satellite pictures as the author did... I will ask my daughters fiancee in two weeks, he just finished a climbing expedition to the Himalaya's and they will be visiting me in BKK...

The world heat content has been DECREASING for the last decade as the Oceans have cooled and the ice levels have INCREASED. This is verified by a study published in 'Science' by Maosheng Zhao and Steven Running. Global plant growth has decreased in the past decade, reversing trends observed over the past 20 years. see http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/climate-change/are-plants-around-the-world-really-dying

NASA and NOAA have admitted to their records being in error due to faulty satellite data and the changes to the data base for the World temperature averages. Numerous weather monitoring sites have been closed in the former USSR...

NOAA spokesman, Program Coordinator, Chuck Pistis declined to state how long the fault might have gone undetected. Nor would he comment on speculation as to the damage done to the credibility of a decade’s worth of temperature readings taken from the problematic ‘NOAA-16’ satellite.

see http://www.climatechangedispatch.com//climate-reports/7491-official-satellite-failure-means-decade-of-global-warming-data-doubtful & http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/10/hottest-year-data-meltdown/?apage=2.

and others

The ARGOS buoy system that became operational during the early 2000s has recorded a negative trend in the total world Ocean heat content. see http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/2009/03/the-ocean-really-is-cooling/ and http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/10/09/ocean-heat-content-dropping/

The Antarctic (worlds largest ice mass) reached the highest levels ever recorded during 2007. see http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/view.php?id=40042 & http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=F1F2F75F-802A-23AD-4701-A92B4EBBCCBF

The Greenland (world second largest ice mass) has increased in volume over the last 50+years. see http://nsidc.org/data/docs/daac/nsidc0092_greenland_ice_thickness/parca_paper1.pdf

The Himalaya mountain glaciers are increasing in size. see http://news.discovery.com/earth/himalayas-glaciers-shrink.html

Plus the water temperatures in the Pacific ocean have triggered a change in the El Neno & La Neno weather patterns... see http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/research/cmb/sst_analysis/images/wkanomv2.png

The media is once again hyping an allegedly dire consequence of man-made global warming. This time the media is promoting the ice loss of one tiny fraction of the giant ice-covered continent and completely ignoring the current record ice growth on Antarctica. Also coments from 11 climate specalist. see http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=F1F2F75F-802A-23AD-4701-A92B4EBBCCBF

Even the Arctic ice coverage has returned to the +-2 Standard deviation for the last 30+Years of observations...

Ice extent declined through the month more slowly than usual, at an average rate of 29,950 square kilometers per day (11,560 square miles per day). The average daily rate of decline for 1979 to 2000 was 40,430 square kilometers (15,610 square miles) per day..

Greater-than-average snowcover was seen in the Tibetan plateau and east of the Urals. This includes the Hymalaya's. see http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

But what the Hell, IPCC stated that the Arctic would be ice free and the Hymalayas would be barren in 35+years... All these other different people and world Organizations are just making up this current data to make the IPCC look bad... Ha! Ha!

According to CNN - http://articles.cnn.com/2007-05-02/tech/arctic.ice_1_sea-ice-ice-data-center-ipcc?_s=PM:TECH

Arctic sea ice is melting at a rate far quicker than predicted by climate change computer models and could disappear completely before the middle of the century, scientists have warned.

The study, published in the latest edition of the journal Geophysical Research Letters, found that the actual rate at which summer sea ice had shrunk per decade during the past 50 years was more than three times faster than an average of 18 of the most highly regarded climate simulations.

By Reenita Malhotra For CNN -- http://article.wn.com/view/2009/10/05/The_high_stakes_of_melting_Himalayan_glaciers/

The glaciers in the Himalayas are receding quicker than those in other parts of the world and could disappear altogether by 2035 according to the 2007 Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report.

Opps just like the hocky stick - heat increases - WRONG AGAIN...

Let's start with Antarctica, since that's your first link.

Vostok data measures temperatures in one place on a continent larger than the U.S. - not a good indicator of overall average temperatures there. A comprehensive study, peer-reviewed and published in Nature almost two years ago, addressed this very issue:

Assessments of Antarctic temperature change have emphasized the contrast between strong warming of the Antarctic Peninsula and slight cooling of the Antarctic continental interior in recent decades¹. This pattern of temperature change has been attributed to the increased strength of the circumpolar westerlies, largely in response to changes in stratospheric ozone².

This picture, however, is substantially incomplete owing to the sparseness and short duration of the observations.

Here we show that significant warming extends well beyond the Antarctic Peninsula to cover most of West Antarctica, an area of warming much larger than previously reported.

West Antarctic warming exceeds 0.1 °C per decade over the past 50 years, and is strongest in winter and spring. Although this is partly offset by autumn cooling in East Antarctica, the continent-wide average near-surface temperature trend is positive.

Antarctica's weather system is highly complex, but we see a clear 50-year trend of warming in Antarctica.

As I know that you are scientifically literate, here's a good overview of the continent in question, especially regarding ice.

The quoted Greenland data is old. The one major paper is dated 2001 and extensively quotes studies from 1991-1999, and the temperature and ice thickness observations are now 7 years old too. Even a lot of stuff from 2007 has already been updated to reflect a much more serious warming condition than was previously reported in 2007 by the UN-IPCC. I have seen data from this year that says that the Himalayan glaciers have already melted by 75%. In 2050 those same Himalayan glaciers are going to have to support the fresh water needs of more than 4 billion people. I have also seen scientific data from the Fall of 2009 from a highly respectable source that blames the Chinese drought on Amazon deforestation, which has tended to shift the prevailing Euro-Asian storm track further to the north and has caused warm and dry Santa Ana or Chinook winds to blow downslope off of the Himalayas, warming and drying interior southern China.

All of these links are less than 2 years old, the last four were written this year, in fact:

http://www.stockholmresilience.org/download/18.8615c78125078c8d3380002197/ES-2009-3180.pdf

http://www.stockholmresilience.org/download/18.1fe8f33123572b59ab800016603/planetary-boundaries-supplementary-info-210909.pdf

This 3rd link is to a short summary:

http://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/researchnews/tippingtowardstheunknown/thenineplanetaryboundaries.4.1fe8f33123572b59ab80007039.html

There is some very good related reading here too, from an upcoming book by an internationally-recognized scientific figure, which is due to be released in July:

http://www.postcarbon.org/end-of-growth-chapters/

http://www.postcarbon.org/article/269759-earth-s-limits-why-growth-won-t-return

http://www.postcarbon.org/article/272062-earth-s-limits-why-growth-won-t-return

http://www.postcarbon.org/article/335860-shrinking-pie-competition-and-relative-growth

On the subject of Chinese pollution, I have found this link from 18 months ago very interesting:

http://www.eutimes.net/2009/12/the-pollution-in-china-exposed-photo-gallery/

Physicist-retired,

1. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s Fourth Assessment Report (IPCC AR4, 2007) concluded that there had been no net change in Antarctic sea ice extent for the period of reliable satellite records (i.e., since 1979); however, recent results suggest a slight increase in maximum Antarctic sea ice extent.

2. Reporting in the journal Geophysical Research Lettersscientists from British Antarctic Survey (BAS) and NASA - Increased growth in Antarctic sea ice during the past 30 years is a result of changing weather patterns caused by the ozone hole according to new research published this week (Thurs 23 April 2009).

"Sea ice plays a key role in the global environment — reflecting heat from the sun and providing a habitat for marine life. At both poles sea ice cover is at its minimum during summer. However, during the winter freeze in Antarctica this ice cover expands to an area roughly twice the size of Europe. Ranging in thickness from less than a metre to several metres, the ice insulates the warm ocean from the frigid atmosphere above. Satellite images show that since the 1970s the extent of Antarctic sea ice has increased at a rate of 100,000 square kilometres a decade."

3. The Australian Antarctic monitoring stations are showing the same trends in sea ice and temperatures. Though the data is a real bare to work with, as are most of the ARGOS data tables. see http://aws.acecrc.org.au/datapage.html

I have a better data source from Australia, that is more user friendly, but it will be tomorrow before I can retrieve it.

4. I have already supplied the NASA & NOAA data that reflects 2007 reaching max ice/snow levels ever recorded.

You have a good day....

You can't stop volcanoes, but they not the cause of "this strangeness" anyway, there have always been volcanoes and there always will be.

But what ever it is that's causing this strangeness must be figured out and stopped or else!

This has been figured out. What's different, and accelerating, is the rate at which we are extracting carbon based fossil fuels (coal, petroleum and natural gas), from their long subterranean storage since the carboniferous era, and burning them for energy, thereby returning the carbon, in the form of CO2, back into the atmosphere.

Stopping this process is the hard part, since virtually the entire world's economy runs on these carbon based fuels for power. Some folks argue that the current changes are caused by factors which are out of our control, such as the sun itself. Some folks argue that the current changes are a good thing, since warmer overall climate in the past has been linked with various periods of cultural flourishing. Some even argue that a warming climate and higher CO2 levels will increase agricultural productivity, since plants like CO2.

The down side is that, as the Chinese are finding out, broad climatic patterns of precipitation can change as well, resulting in flooding in some areas (Northern Australia and Central U.S.) while bringing drought and fresh water supply crises for millions of other people, and who knows, maybe even new deserts where there formerly were farms.

Buckle your seatbelts folks, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

What's different, and accelerating, is the rate at which we are extracting carbon based fossil fuels (coal, petroleum and natural gas), from their long subterranean storage since the carboniferous era, and burning them for energy, thereby returning the carbon, in the form of CO2, back into the atmosphere.

I realize the stuff stinks and is not good to breathe. Here's the problem I have with that statement: back in the old days, coal and lead-based petroleum products (both agreed to be high in carbon and poisonous) were burned a lot more than they are now. Today, leaded gasoline is (to my knowledge) illegal, and coal-based power plants have been replaced with slightly cleaner oil plants. There are also laws in place now that restrict the amount of garbage that can be dumped into oceans, lakes, and rivers that were not in place 50 years ago, people now are trying to use less energy than they did 50 years ago, and littering laws are more strict than they were 50 years ago. In short, pollution is far less now than it was even 30 years ago, yet we are still being reamed for "carelessly trashing the planet." Quite frankly, I am sick and tired of hearing it. If you want man to stop chopping down trees to build strip malls and such, stop shopping at Wal-Mart.

In my hometown, there was a pretty good-sized forest along a main drag, and several unused buildings that were more than big enough to be converted into a Wal-Mart. But rather than do that, Wal-Mart decided to buy the forest land in our town, build their super center, and leave those aforementioned buildings unused. Do you think the people of our town had any say in the matter? 4 homes were "condemned" via Eminent Domain to make this project possible.

My point is, the overwhelming majority of people in the world already agree that this kind of waste mentioned above has gone too far, which means it's pointless to keep bashing us over the head about it. However, that same overwhelming majority is also powerless to stop it. It's the big corporations run by the elite who make these decisions - the same elite, I might add, who keep shoving this "green" crap down our throats. So, if you really want to "go green," stop shopping at Wal-Mart, Target, Lowe's, Home Depot, and any mega-mall with "anchor" stores like Macy's. Stop feeding Godzilla while blaming the destruction on the people he eats.

Wall of J

Every thing you stated is true of the USA. There are several countries (China being one of them) that don't do those things and are relentlessly destroying their own piece of the planet which, in turn, will destroy the rest of the planet. People will argue and disagree and try to form committees to figure out what should be done politically and correctly while Rome burns. We deserve to be wiped off the face of the planet and, apparently, we will.

@ Mike,

Look at what happened to southeast Australia. It really is a dustbowl now.

Wall of J,

You need to study economics 101.

Woolworth's business model depended on the appreciation in the value of the building and surrounding land. This was the source of their long tern success, day-to-day operational profit was a plus... They failed when they violated this and went into speciality stores... Walmart has copied their old model...

Plus it cost much more to remodel or clear existing sites and infrastructure... Unless there are very large tax incentives and development discounts being given by the local government...

Leaded gasoline is still being used by many Nations around the world. Ethanol is mainly a North & South America's experiment after the USA discovered that MTBE was polluting the water-tables... Lead, MTBE, & Ethanol was/is added to improve octane ratings...

see my comments on 'Maturing Industrial Socities concerning pollution awairness @ http://accrew4.newsvine.com/_news/2011/05/20/6688901-maturing-industrial-societies

Water doesn't disappear genius. It simply evaporates and re-condenses elsewhere.

milcon - that's the problem, instead of a somewhat even distribution of water, climate change is forcing more water in areas of too much water and less water where it is needed. Also, humans are mostly water and modern man uses a lot of fresh water, so the more people you have, the less available fresh water to condense elsewhere....genius

Just, the Earth's ecosystems produce the hydrological system as well as naturally take care of C02. The Earth's forests or terrestrial ecosystems are in the eco-nomics of rainfall. Science has many examples of deforestation not only heating up the climate but drying it out.

Along the Mexican/American border in one locale, the climate is cooler on the American side. Both nations share the same ecosystem and the same native plant biodiversity. On the Mexcian side, they introduced cattle, and the cattle consumed some of the natural vegetation, leaving bare spots of exposed soil, and this heated up and dried out Mexico's climate. Even ancient peoples witnessed a hotter and drier climate when they removed trees and vegetation. Plato witnessed the deforestation of a forest and wrote of the springs drying up and saw how, with removal of the plant biodiversity, this opened the sky to allow the sun to bake the Earth.

"The human economy, social structure and the well-being of our species rest on the bedrock of the health and welfare of integrated global ecological systems. Every breath we take, every bit of sustenance we consume daily are totally dependent on the interrelationships between the atmosphere, soil, water and the diversity of species that inhabit the planet with us..."

and at the left when they bleat on about Al Gore's global warming

Funny. I hear that 'bleat' come from the Right as they denigrate the Left for showing Environmental Concern, as opposed to mindlessly dittoheading "Drill Baby, Drill!". I haven't heard a Progressive quote Gore in many years. Just heard them mention he had the Election stolen from him by Bush. ;-)

And those without enough sense to rationally take the evidence on the front pages demonstrating the degree of changing weather and increasing damages resultant are just as likely to ignore the fact that every square mile of the Amazon, Everglades and other important bellweather ecosystems which are encroached on and altered means less chance of a long future for Man on Earth. And a more miserable one will we are so blessed as to be here.

But let's just worry about what Al Quaida, Wall Street, Unions, the unemployment rate, Medicare or Obamacare is going to do to us, like our Government likes to keep our attention on...because you know, they REALLY CARE about US!!!

Peace

LOOK! I found One! A perfect example of my point in above post!!! Enjoy!

Franklin -774221

All these tree huggers with their junk science will blame anything on global warming or their newest scam "global climate change". That is how Al Gore has amassed 500 million since 2000. Fact is -the earth is a chaotic place where sh## happens. The idea that man can somehow predict what is normal or a baseline is beyond arrogant. The earth could rip apart tomorrow and all the physics in the world could not predict it or stop it. There will be more ice ages and more times of blistering heat-mankind and all his accomplishments and shames will be erased by some cataclysmic event that we are powerless to stop-Live what little life you have-you will be gone soon enough!!!!

the more people you have, the less available fresh water to condense elsewhere....genius

I can practically smell the bullcrap here.

The WORLD climate driver are the OCEANS, covering over 70% of the earths surface...

The LOCAL climate driver is the vegetation and/or lack of it and man's pollution...

For a historical prospective look at what happened to Easter Island, after the inhabitants removed the trees...

For a current prespective look at:

1. Brazil, destroying the rain-forest to produce sugar cane/ethanol.

2. China, the consequences of the Three Gorges dam and other environmental damaging practices (coal fired power plants and Rare Earth mining/processing)

3. USA, compare the old US Steel industry practices to the current practices. BTY they are still producing the same amounts of steel with less than 10% of the original employees.

Man can only exist on 18% of the earths surface, of this about 1% has been urbanized. This equals to 0.18% of the total worlds surface...

The WORLD climate driver are the OCEANS, covering over 70% of the earths surface...

The world climate drivers are, in fact, the water and greenhouse gas content of the atmosphere, along with some well-understood cyclic phenomena like Milankovitch Cycles and solar cycles.

For a historical prospective look at what happened to Easter Island, after the inhabitants removed the trees...

Apples and oranges. When Easter island was deforested, it's inhabitants could no longer build fishing boats. Fishing was a primary food source of the Easter islanders. There is no freshwater source on the island (other than a depression in an old volcano, which collects rainwater), so agriculture on a large scale was not possible.

The Islanders starved because their ability to fish ended with the last felled tree, and water was rare. A cautionary tale, as our water supplies are disrupted globally, our oceans acidify from dissolved CO2, and great Dead Zones are created from fertilizer runoff.

I agree with points 1, 2, and 3.

Always glad to see your well-reasoned and accurate addendums/corrections to the experts' comments, PR!

It is common for the full set of factors in the equation of climate change, as well as other issues, to be conveniently disregarded by many, especially those claiming to be the Smartest Guy In The Room. I certainly do not make that claim.

I appreciate everyone's contribution to the intelligent discussion, however, as I constantly become educated to the wealth of knowledge shared on Newsvine.

Thanks to All.

Regardless if human activity caused this or not, global climate change is happening whether you are willing to see it or not, and whether you believe it or not.

Local impacts of global climate change include disappearing ice caps in the Arctic, Antarctica, and Greenland, which may be behind the increased precipitation in some places (e.g. heavier annual snowpack in the Mississippi, Missouri and Ohio river basins and consequent increased flooding in spring; heavier monsoon seasons in Australia) and decreases elsewhere (as in this article; witness also the increase in wildfire activity in Texas, the disappearance of the Aral Sea, etc.). The overall trend is warmer temperatures with unpredictable local results.

Local weather patterns are not going to be as they were in the past, and that is going to cause former cropland to either become desert or floodplain, and vice-versa. Agriculture is going to have to move to follow the most favorable climate; areas that are today's global breadbasket may have to import food. Not everyone is going to play nice as these changes occur, and not everyone will be willing or able to migrate. And not all the newly warm, wet areas are going to have soil favorable to crops. Add political boundaries to the equation. The Chinese are not the only ones who are going to get bit.

So it may be a little premature to be LOLing at anyone else's misfortune.

Thanks Vic, for not being stuck on stupid!

Hey stuck in limbo (as in Rush?). Are you that F'ing stupid ? Damming and diverting rivers are the same we do here. Do "little" research about how the Colorado for one, is doing to Western Agricultural states, and screw the farmer in the middle.

As to your little RW bit about the Mississippi, how is it that we are now having 100 year floods every few years? Although you tools' don't want to admit it, mountain snow and ice caps ARE melting. Toss in another 100 years of CO-2 / greenhouse gas, and where do YOU think the water goes? I'd like to say where I would love to put it, but decorum limits me here.

Then...... after it is all gone, we will be in the same position as China. As to some people speculating that there will be WAR over water, I ABSOLUTELY AGREE.

It IS happening, and if you open your eyes and read a little... Canada and the US are arguing over the GREAT LAKES now !. *the biggest fresh water supply in the world.

Once we deplete this, we are all going to be in the same spot as China.

You won't be stuck in limbo anymore !

Ps: Go out and water your lawn tonight and laugh at China.

Many of the thermal solar power generators use open loop water/steam systems to drive their turbines. The problem starts when they are using the drinking water of people to turn into steam. Most of these projects are hundreds of miles from the ocean...

Look at the environmental damage being cause by the Blythe Solar Power project in the CA desert. The effects on the water table, which has directly effected endangered animals and plants, plus the America Indians heritage sites, that were over 2+Thousand years old... Just for a German built power plant with a life expectancy of 30+years, that cost over $2+Billion USD to build. Using the companies own numbers... see http://www.mydesert.com/article/20110424/NEWS07/104240322

Even the Nuclear Industry is using open loop cooling water in their systems. This is why many in the USA have been throttled back due to water shortages. The ones using sea water, do not let the temperature rise enough to produce steam, due to salt deposits. Though I'm sure this could be mitigated with the correct design...

We will not discuss the thermal pollution cause by these installations...

If you are not co-locating this steam project with a industry that produces high levels of waste heat, where are you receiving the energy to make the steam??? I know a coal fired electrical generator, another fine 'Green Energy' solution like EV. Ha! Ha!

Ever took an english class?

Training ducks to deliver water is an outstanding idea! And when the crisis is over they would be good with a nice orange glaze!

Yeah, and let's hear it for slave labor. Go Romans!

How did that Roman Empire thingy work out, any way?!

Maybe we can start by converting the Great Wall? It'll cut building costs.

How did the cast of Monty Python get on this blog??

Thanks for the quality comic relief.

Sirlafalot,

What is 'juicing' a pet? I hope it isn't what it sounds like it is, but I've never heard that term before.

It's not unlike "pressing" a wheel of cheese. It just happens alot faster. Painless I'm sure.

Worse than I thought. Are you there?

Didn't Jack LaLaine used to hock those on infomercials?

Bear bile beer is unthinkable to drink unless you consider the alternative. No beer at all.

For retired people who have slowed down a little, or who were physicist and miss funny stuff, "Damn you're dry now" , and "Dang your lips chapped" are not really provinces in China. Still love you though. I'm not there, and I would never consider juicing a live animal. Unless I were really thirsty. Now, Behaengdamwall has plenty of water. Move there.

The Chinese Emperor guard dogs were called 'Chow Chow's' for a reason...

It is a standing joke in Thailand, "If your neighborhood has too many stray dogs. It is a indication of few Chinese neighbors." Through Isan ladies are known to eat Dogs, I tell the wife that is OK, because US men eat Cat...

BTY - The dry season in Asia starts in Nov and last until May, to have it rain only one or twice during that time period is NORMAL... I have lived in Thailand on a farm for the last 7+years and travel throughout Asia. It rained only twice this year and now we are experiencing a normal rain about every night...

The article is using NORMAL occurrences to scare the uninformed... Just like later this spring there will be floods, NORMAL weather occurrences... Last year, there was a drought and the rains did not start until late July, this depressed many water-table levels. But the Pacific weather El Lino & La Nino pattern has CHANGED(about every 10+years) and the rain patterns are shifting back to what is historically considered NORMAL...

China and Japan are now experiencing their first typhoon of this season, again a NORMAL weather occurrence for this time of year...

Raymond-1126037,
I thought you were talking about the USA, until you said the Yangtze river.

Or did you mean the Mississippi River??? Which the fine people of Chicago reversed the flow of the Chicago River, so they could pump their sewage into the head waters of the Mississippi. see http://www.chicagoriver.org/upload/Chicago%20River%20History.pdf

Or NYC and many other NE Cities that still use 'out-falls' to pump their sewage into the largest fishing grounds in the world. They ALL have become better & polluting less but they still discharge millions of gallons of untreated water... see http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/waterfront/20051104/18/1647

Are you old enough to remember the FOUR US Urban-Industrial Rivers that Caught on Fire in the Great Lakes region. Rouge River in Detroit, as well as the Chicago, Buffalo and Cuyahoga rivers. see http://www.miseagrant.com/product_p/michu-11-500.htm

Keep bashing China, but remember the USA was doing the same thing for over a hundred years and just started to clean up their act during the last two decades... The EU is still polluting the Mediterranean Sea and using it as a cesspool and disposal ground for nuclear waste...

Excellent points, AC!

notsojingo-Still, Raymond has a point about China's flagrant disregard for its excess in Carbon Emissions (and a damn thump on the head to us). I sympathize with the difficult management of getting essential resources to a Billion people, but MORE Coal Plants (as well as diversion of water by Dams) might not be the best solution.

AC-Were you not the person, in this same blog, who is a Climate Change denier? If so, your comments and references confuse me, change of heart perhaps? If not, my humble apologies for the implied disparagement.

Certainly meant no dis to Raymond. Thanks for the point out, Barbara!

They definitely pollute their country and the rest of the World with a bunch of Nasty Stuff.

)-,:

The only thing American rice is good for is to feed livestock and Farangs...

Once you have eaten Jasmine or Basmati, prepaire correctly, you will know what I mean...

"You Canadian, you full of fodder. You put pee pee in that water!"

Obviously you must stand in the mirror looking at yourself hating who you see everyday.

FOB Great Lakes. You pay the shipping. The value added (pee pee) will cost you more. Hatred is extra if desired, but I doubt it. There is plenty of supply of that in Beijing - from the government to the people.