I'd have to disagree with you about the way Ai Weiwei is felt about within the PRC ranks. They don't fear him, they have animosity toward him. He casts an unpleasant light on them so they took him into custody.

What he did is seen as more of an insult and breech of ettiquette than a threat.

Some of them probably do fear what his and similar activists activities represent, but no individual is feared because no individual has any hope of opposing them in any way other than symbolic martyrdom.

No Chrissy these clowns fear him.you can take that to the bank.if he dies a symbolic martyr then the next on e sprouts up and the one after that and after that. these clowns sooner or later will be buried,i just hope i live to see it.

the only insults to anyone, going on, are their ignorant insults to human rights.

Chris-35081, come clean, you are just a Chinese Internet mole, taught too try and convince the rest of the world that YOUR MASTERS can dictate the slate of doing business. Like all distasteful regimes the Chinese communist party will tumble harshly under the weight of world opinion. It is time for our Government here in the states to revoke and quarantine all Chinese funds and holdings on our domestic soil. Revoke and deny them access to recourse, just like we did too Gadhafi. That sends the biggest and most understood message on the planet. If you mess with the human rights of anyone on the planet you will be punished ten fold for your transgression! Your money is snatched away and your economy laid bare for the vultures to pick apart. Just like the Oligarchs did in Mother Russia after her fall from grace. A hollow shell of what it once was, with little to no influence in an arena anywhere. Putin is laughable, clinging to things past and a greatness perceived by half ass attempts to mimic the wests obvious supremacy. Where theres right theres also might!

You got me Jeffrey, my pragmatism masks my evil commie heart. I rarely insult people, but I'm tempted to here.

I'm no fan of the PRC government, but that doesn't mean that every negative and cowardly attribute should be applied. You have to know the opposition to overcome it. Otherwise, you are just running blindly into a fight you don't actually know how to win. You might get lucky, but that's all you'll get unless your opponent is just as foolhardy or in a considerably compromised position.

You got me Jeffrey, my pragmatism masks my evil commie heart. I rarely insult people, but I'm tempted to here.

Points scored for holding composure!

,on the clock,
But the party don't stop, no

Put your hands in the air like you just don't care!

...ain't no party...

If I knew it was going to be this kind of party, I would have stuck my dick in the mashed potatoes!

He has no such authority, but doubt he would use it even if he had it.

This isn't about Obama. Everything is Obama's fault, apparently. Get a life and stop blaming others for your own shortcomings.

These shallow beings just cannot hide their hate without reason, ignorance being their guide. And Beck, Rush, O'Reilly, et al.

@ YouNeedTruth2

hahahaha...fail troll

Every major world politician kisses China's butt...the US is no exception, neither party is exempt...for you to even insinuate otherwise is hilarious

All behold the power of the almighty dollar/frank/pound/euro/ruble/yuan/duetschmark/yen.

US needs China more than vice versa. Without China buying our debt, our economy will be in solvent

Yeah, and my dog crapped in the rose garden all because of Obama. You people are worse fanatics than Muslim terrorists.

Mr. von Dorf, they both need each other. don't let anything fool ya!

Te US does not need China more than China needs it. Get educated. If you think America is broke then please educate yourself on the CAFR (Comprehensive Annual Financial Report) of your collective government - local, state, and federal. The gov't has been investing in private businesses since WW2. You are only led to believe that taxationrepresents the governements primary income via the more publicly available "annual budget" which does not show private investment returns. We are extremely wealthy with investment income of > 15 trillion whereas the total post tax income of every american amounted to 5 trillion. Educate yourself before making such statements that lessen our great and powerful nation.

youneedtruth2-thats bull crap, you need a ground swell of peoples in those countries to gather momentum for change, Not a few thousand protesters but, 100's fo thousands, without that we are no more than regime changers like Iraq, which was dead wrong and we shouldn't have done it. As of yet, Yemen, Syria or Iran has started a barrage of artillery on their populace or cities, get real and become active in making changes, don't sit on the sidelines and criticize it only makes you and the American public look foolish!

gloria fabiaschi

Mr. von Dorf, they both need each other. don't let anything fool ya!

Indeed! The debt the US' debt-spiral keeps the Fed Rate low which allows US banks a really cheap alternative access to funds aside from competing for deposits. The low rate also allows for a bargain-basement baseline for mega-corporations to leverage themselves on when issuing debt (which both shareholders and execs love because it doesn't erode equity like financing through stock-sales). This low Fed Rate also allows for incredible amounts of M&A activity thanks to easy financing.

Market makers also love the low Fed Rate because of the effect that it has on consumption. Because the low rate erodes savings, the only way to ensure a secondary source of income is through investment. Large traders have the homecourt advantage thanks to numerous economies of scale found in everything from seats on trading floors, virtually no transaction fees per trade and top-industry expertise as well as the inside track on best-efforts IPO's!

For China, it's more simple. The Chinese government wants outsourcing dollars flowing into their country. They enable this by suppressing their currency, irrespective of the fact that they have a huge population and double-digit GDP growth YoY. They suppress their currency by trading liquidity for less-than-liquid assets such as US T-Bills. This also has the effect of boosting the currency of the US$ because of the increased liquidity.

However, this trend is quickly coming to an end. Ultimately a Fiat currency must match the underlying productivity of the host-country. The US-Dollar right now reflects more of the world's appreciation of the US-brand than based on the US' underlying real-GDP.

This will ultimately change, like the advancing tidal wave against a shallow levvy. The US will not be able to borrow indefinitely to keep its banks and mega-corporations from being competitive whilst holding the US middle class hostage and the Chinese government will not be able to suppress their growing middle-class from having the same rights, freedoms and purchasing power that the rest of the world enjoys. I see this as an inevitability, but the powers-that-be will use every available resource from ultimately preventing the switch from happening, they've tied their (and with much hard work, our) livelyhood to it.

I agree. One term and bye-bye obama. He consistently goes back on his word to suit the issue de jour. Any strength of character, any "passionate beliefs" all seem to be bluffs. Transparent, at that. Yes, we have been supporting China and now that they have a momentum going, their true colors are starting to show. Trade embargo time. After all, they have no oil, what do we need THEM for, Mr. Prez?

Kevin Edward Kelly, I think you miss understand the mono-cum of intent here. China owns a very large portion of our debt because we have strong leaders like Obama and a consistent non default history in our bond markets. Obama made very hard and decisive decisions during a time of great peril for the American Economy. If Obama would have let Bush's house of cards collapse, he could of just pointed the finger and then started to rebuild our economy from scratch. It would have been a disaster of monumental proportions that would have eclipsed the great depression 10 fold. Because of his commitment of funds and bolstering of the Auto Industry we avoided a total collapse and sent a message to the world that we stand behind our dept and are not afraid to take incalculable chances to support world markets as well. China's communist regime will change for no other reason than the two economic models won't mix. Communist monetary systems match Free market systems like oil and water. It just won't work. When you create wealth, you create truth, justice and most of all an educated populace. Educated people will not bow down or cower to tyrants and like it or not they will find away, either by non-violent means similar too the rise of India or through violent over throw. Remember that although the Red army is Hugh, it is made up of people of humble means and most of the decision makers are small in community, very similar to that of the Soviet Union, Didn't work out to well for them either, Wealth and education are synonymous with one another. Kevin one more thing, we need China desperately they are a pretty big market for our durable goods. We buy their T-shirts and we sell them Caterpillar earth moving equipment. That's a pretty square deal from where i stand. Kevin what we need to happen is for the rich individuals and corporations to start paying taxes again and to hit them hard with levee's when they ship jobs off shore that could be filled by Americans at a decent wage. when that American has a decent paying job then he will pay his fair share of taxes and so on it goes. That is what resolves deficits, not by cutting off food and assistance to the poor

kevin edward kelly

...Trade embargo time...

That would be disasterous! If we were to tariff or embargo trade with China, China would turn around and leverage all of its (read: also OUR) trading partners to sanction and tariff US goods and services.

China is the chief supplier or raw materials to numerous industrialized nations such as Japan and S. Korea. China could end selling rare-earth metals to these countries and shut down their electronics industries in one quarter (in fact, China tested this very ability just recently with Japan over a dispute regarding a rowdy Chinese fisherman in disputed waters)!

China also provides huge amounts of labor markets to numerous mega-corporations ranging from Siemens, Intel, Apple, Microsoft, Boeing, GE, GM, etc. That would END. Their manufacturing and IP located in mainland China would be seized...and as much as I think that being complicit with tyrannical regimes and betraying the US citizen with outsourcing would make them deserve it...the only people that would hurt would be the American citizen...the execs have golden parachutes anyway...they'll be just fine!

The way we solve this mess is by raising the Fed Rate. We don't need to embargo/restrict trade with anyone, we need to slow government borrowing and we need to remove the primary tool that China uses to suppress its currency (namely cheap American T-Bills).

The higher Fed Rate would slow both government and consumer spending, which would reduce the US$ and make US-made goods more competitively priced thanks to exchange rates. Companies that rely the least on outsourcing will see a competitive advantage as those that are heavily reliant on outsourcing will have greatly higher and unpridictable input costs.

We could reverse course on the outsourcing trend in a year if the US were serious about it.

But the mega-banks, multinational corporations and China and India depend on the US spending itself dizzy.

The best part is that the changes would be completely internal. China would need to print more money to suppress its currency, which would remove their spending power because they would sink into hyper inflation. If they tried to tariff US-exports to their country, the US would remove MFN status and the WTO would be forced to drop them as members as that's against the rules. If China lost that membership, all of the favorable tax treatments and incentives that outsourcing corporations rely on would be removed and they would pull up roots.

Which, though excellent points, is why it won't happen! Everyone is too big to fail, as long as the current rules are applicable.

@ notsojingo

I don't think that they have a choice, I see us on an inevitable path.

Both will lead towards nasty economic consequences for both parties. It will take ever-greater amounts of funding and fancy accounting BS to keep the ball rolling in the same direction it has been moving for 30 years.

Both countries are on an unsustainable path, and to keep going this direction will require ever-greater resources. Eventually one of us will exhaust it all and we both will sink to a natural equilibrium, worse off than if we planned ahead and readjusted to these ideal points in the first place :)

TL;DR

Best Case Scenario: The Fed is required to raise the Fed Rate to gradually match actual inflation. Congress will get ticked off as they can no longer refinance the debt in the SSI and Medicare Trusts and all new debt issuances will be at the more expensive rate. The gradual rate increase will allow heavily outsourced and leveraged companies to reduce their exposure to exchange rate risk by bringing more core operating costs back to the US and limit supply purchases from foreign sellers as the US$ begins to drop. China too will be given a chance to either transition into a consumer economy (which is the natural structure for their huge population and growing middle class), OR they crack down hard on their currency and start printing tons of money, which throws them into hyper inflation and removes their purchasing power.

In the short run, savings and investment will get eroded as the US$ drops to more closely match real-GDP as both government and consumer spending slow because new debt is more expensive than old debt. However, thanks to the high per-capita savings rates of both individuals and businesses, business/consumer wealth will appreciate.

Foreign investors and domestic exporters will find good business to be done from US-shores. As the Fed Rate continues to match inflation, the value of the US$ will rise, and because this rise is fueled by domestic exports, investment and consumer spending as opposed to just consumer and government spending, the value of the dollar will rise even more.

The US' future prosperity (as I see it) will come when the country's currency reflects its productivity and not the degree to which the country is leveraged by foreign debt-purchases and borrowing from the SSI and Medicare Trusts.

Worst Case Scenario: The SSI and Medicare Trusts become completely insolvent in 2037 even after their payouts and caps have been adjusted. Congress and the Fed can no longer borrow from these trusts and becomes increasingly obligated to borrow from foreign countries to keep the Fed Rate low. After all, the mega banks/corporations depend on a low Fed Rate and Strong Dollar to keep the outsourcing gravy-train rolling and the US middle-class hostage to purchase foreign goods over domestic ones (man! What a barrier to entry that small/medium businesses that cannot outsource enough production cannot achieve anywhere close to the same margins as the mega-outsourcers can! It sure keeps your domestic competitors' stock prices lower and financing more difficult).

Anyway. The US' credit rating takes a nose-dive as the country's liquidity comes into question. The closer that the US has to print huge amounts of money is the closer that Congress loses the ability to apply for more debt. Just the concern about this causes the US$ to plummet and the mega-outsourcers and foreign banks get rattled as their exposure to the depreciating US$ whipes out a large chunk of their collateral base. US consumers are now impoverished, both with a weak dollar, low domestic investment and a Fed that MUST raise its rate to combat impending inflation. Inflation comes anyway, Congress has obligations to meet and begins printing money. The Fed compensates by raising the rate even more. We have Jimmy Carter-esque stagflation and the country sinks into double-digit unemployment AGAIN.

US companies with high exchange rate risk find production quickly go into the red as US consumers have no wealth and China is no longer a cheap source of anything. China loses its #1 customer and is forced to primarily do business with the EU and itself, but that is not anywhere close to enough business, and China is forced to print money to keep it's currency cheap enough for the EU and Koreans to afford...OR they become a consumer economy and the reigning Chinese government looks to its middle class for sustainable growth rather than the industrial moguls and military hawks which currently hold the power (HAHAHA, yeah right!).

In the end, the US will become a manufacturing country again as the high per-capita education and ripe labor market combined with a cheap currency draws in business seeking to export. China becomes a consumer economy or throws themselves under the economic bus (again) and closes off from the outside world.

If China is so great and Obama is such a poor leader, why is China so stupid in buying up our bonds ? China just want to loose its shirt ?

@ poiuy,

China needs to keep buying our low-yield debt. That's the #1 way they keep their currency suppressed without eroding their spending power the way printing money would.

China depends on the US to keep its spending pattern as high as possible with as low of a Fed Rate as possible because the lower the yield on the debt, the cheaper it is on the market, and the more such debt will suppress the currency of the country(ies) purchasing it. Additionally, by buying the US T-bills in such large amounts, regardless of marketability, the US$ rises in value. Since the US is the top customer of Chinese exports and because the US outsources so heavily to China, it is of grave importance that the US$ is propped up while the Yuan is suppressed.

If the US raises it's rate and slows its deficit spending, the Chinese will not be able to suppress their currency without printing money.

If China cannot keep its currency suppressed, they will become too expensive to outsource to because their products/labor will cost too much. China's net exports would go negative and their eonomy would shift into a consumer economy as Chinese industry goes out of business or flees the country for cheaper sources of labor.

If China prints money to keep its currency suppressed, they will go into hyper inflation, which will kill their spending power! If they lose their spending power, they will have to cut back heavily on all of their major expenditures such as their urban development and military strengthening.

China's government and the US's corporations want this pattern to continue.

Nevermind the fact that their army hasn't be hobbled by two wars. That is a fight we would lose.

The difference is arresting an artist and keeping him 48 hours versus opening fire and wiping out protesters. There IS a difference.

That said, you don't bite the hand that serves you food on cheap melomine plates. (%50 off after holidays!) Mmmm....lead poisening...oh well, can't afford to send my kids to college anyway :)

Nevermind the fact that their army hasn't be[en] hobbled by two wars. That is a fight we would lose.

You underestimate our capabilities. Bear in mind that we spend north of $600 billion a year on defense, to China's $90 billion. They have a larger standing army, but they're not as well equipped. They also have limited sea and air power (by comparison-- on the whole, they're no slouches!) Our aircraft carriers are especially formidable. Still, China is ramping up defense spending, and I'm sure there's a big black budget somewhere along the line. But to think that we would be summarily defeated is simply not accurate. More likely you would be confronted with that whole "mutually assured destruction" bit.

wychdoctorgeorge, Our leadership would have never backed anyone in Libya if the Libyan leader Wacky Gadafy wouldn't have started shooting at his own people! We didn't interfere in Egypt or Tunisia and we won't set foot in Syria, Yemen or Bahrain either. As our president told us last Monday night a week ago, we are not in the business of regime change and should have never been in Iraq at all. We lost 1000's of our brightest young warriors and 10's of thousands of Iraq's just too over throw Saddam and set up a government that has yet too prove itself worthy too lead. Get real, there is a time and place for action, this was one of those times and we did react. the fall of Gadafy will be good for North Africa and Libya. Maybe it will usher in a new error in equality and justice. It's just to early to tell....

China do not hold US's credit card. The Fed Reserve does. China holds 1.3 billion people that US do not have enough man power to occupy. And if you think the Iraq war is expensive, bombing China will cause US a few thousands of times more, in both money and men.

We will not bomb our financial benefactors!

If they put all the communist party members in egg rolls.....

As I am sure you are aware, Paul, there is no profit motive in forcing any humanitarian action in China.

Just some rudimentary lip service occasionally.

Peace

notsojingo There are Hugh profit motives at stake here, who are you kidding? China is way bigger than Japan or Europe in regard to trade. I'm an economist and have been for 25 years, it's what I do every day. China is so envious of our economy model that they invest almost all of their excess currency in US Bonds and T-Bills, they know that it is their best hedge against inflation and is the most stable currency on the planet. The Chinese, however, really want Americans too like them, it is probably the biggest ace in the hole we have. When we criticize them it hurts their feelings and they take it very personally. It will be no time before this gentleman is back at home with his wife, unfortunately there will be a armed guard at the door and his Internet privileges will be set for local browsing only!

Agreed Brother. That is why I stated no action will be taken, by the West I should add, to halt humanitarian violations there. The fix is in.

Again, Peace.

You are quite wrong. China produced 50% of the world's GDP in the 17'th century, and probably before that. That was the golden days of China, not now. Now it is a poor second, with 1/5 of the world's population, and only 15% of the world GDP.

OK, sure.

The timing of the arrest of Ai Weiwei is probably triggered by his plan to move to Germany. He said he plans to do half of his work in Germany. That is, out of the bloody hands of the Chinese Communist Party. They got him when he was escaping through Hong Kong.

You must be including Bush 1 & 2, Clinton, etc. So give it up w/ your Obamaphobia BS.

BTW, I am not a big Obama the Corporatist fan...

I think I finally figured you righties out. In your world view, everything.. and I do mean everything.. comes back to Obama is evil. Illegal aliens cause 70% of our problems, abortion rights cause another 20%, da gay causes the remaining 10%. Muslins (GOP spelling) somehow cause all three ills (illegal aliens, abortions and da gay). Obama is a Muslin. Therefore Obama causes all problems. Y'all should consider applying for jobs with the Chinese propaganda ministry.. only they may think that you lack sophistication.

California first: YOu actually thinkhe has helped this contry ? Are you a fool??? And bush causes all the problems right get it straight Obama is are Pres. for 2 yrs has he is not President material I have no faith in him. I"m very concerend about our kids future , and after this health care bill goes in affect , I dont understand why he would want to undermind the best health care in the world. People come from all over the world to here to get their medical care.If it was up to him we would all be communist like china!!!Maybe if you actually knew what it was like to come from a communist party or socailist party youd shut up!!!

Your concern is about 30-40 years tardy, Shelley.

And when it does go boom, we will not lift a finger to help the rebellion. Can't spank the Too Big To Fail!

Well stated, MT! The sheets are not pulled over your eyes either!!

I don't want to disrespect my country. I was born into a better life than many people around the world will ever know. I refuse to take that fact for granted... However, I do believe that what Midnight Toker is saying is absolutely correct. I've had this same opinion for years. I want America to be what our forefathers fought and died for it to be - a home of the brave and a land of the free. My grandfather would roll over in his grave if he knew what our country has become. Every time I buy a new article of clothing and it says 'Made in China' my stomach turns... People working in sweat shops just to 'barely' survive are responsible for my clothing. How can the businessmen negotiating trade deals with the Chinese Govt. sleep at night? I've wanted to buy 'American Made' for years now. Does anyone know where this kind of merchandise can be found these days???? Seriously.

Latins, mostly, in South Florida have been in nearly sweatshop conditions making Ralph Lauren Line clothing for quite some time.

You can find these at Marshall's, Ross, etc.

Let me see. During the 50's and 60's, the US was run by Democrats and "so-called-Republicans". Is that why US detest China then ? US started getting close to the Communist China when the real Republican, Nixon, go to be prez, and was downhill ever since. US recognized the Communist China, US kicked out ROC and admitted PRC into UN. US voted for admitting of Communist China into WTO. All Republicans.

Don't confuse us with facts when we want to blame Obama. Even if the trade deficit started decades ago, even before Obama was born, it is his fault.

I doubt it. I think he's very much alive. The Chinese secret police is too good at what they do to actually kill anyone in their custody. They haven't done so - with political dissidents - for many years now (dissidents, not terrorists, subversives and militants, which they have no problems killing).

Their modus operandi is to subtly intimidate the vast majority of dissidents and prospective dissidents into silence. The best way to do this is to keep a few choice ones in custody, with rumors of harsh (but not fatal) treatment. It's almost like they're hostages.. and the threat is you'll disappear too, if you keep up your dissent. They probably leak or invent most of those rumors themselves. Meanwhile, they subject the much larger numbers not actually in custody to varying degrees of harassment.. reading their emails, tapping their phones in ways that they actually kNOW they're bugging them, following them around, following their spouses and kids around, etc, etc. They're trying to maintain a pervasive system of low level fear with the threat of joining those behind bars. If they actually kill somebody important, the facade breaks down and they will face an open revolt.

I haven't heard about Ai Weiwei's death yet. But death of prisoners in Chinese jails is quite common. They are usually reported as "suicided", "died when he felt off his bed", "died playing hide and seek", "died from suffocation by his blanket.", etc. So, yes, they are good, but not in keeping them alive, but in coming up with new, creative cause of death.

There are no dissenting views allowed. Or you WILL disappear. As well as your family if they protest.

Some wonderful society, Roy.

I can't decide if you are a fool or a troll. For your sake, I hope you're a troll, that can be cured. But if you really believe all of that -- do you want to buy a bridge?

Why the F**K would I even want to visit China? LOL, who cares I have no use to go to a country where everything is faked for your buck, You have no rights, no say, no safety nothing, maybe you should move there and learn something because if you are as stupid as you post implies you will fit right in like a good lil toad.

Create the future... sounds like you want to create the past... i.e. American interference without understanding. I take it you have visited China? Spoken to people there? Read any books from Chinese government officials? no? Then I guess you are talking out of your hat like most ignorant people do.

Notsojingo... I have visited China several times, and believe me... there are many. many people criticizing the government with impunity. Of course, they are not promoting public riots or large scale dissention. But, frankly, if you promote any dissention in the USA then you come under heavy observation by the American government. e.g. the whole McCarthyism era where even being suspected as Communist was sufficient reason for you to be harrassed, or the current era where one gets on a terror watch list for minor dissent. Just for dissenting against the government detaining and deporting one's friend because he has the same name as a suspected terrorist, even though he is fully cleared by the FBI, will get you a nice listing as a "suspected terrorist" in the USA.

Americans are so blind to the fact that the USA is just as despotic as they accuse China of being. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

I worked in China for several years too, as an American expat. Roy's kind of right, although a bit too sanguine toward China for my tastes. China is not a totalitarian police state. People do not feel unfree, in their day-to-day lives. The state is not omni-present, like it was in Soviet Russia. Instead, China is an authoritarian surveillance state... which is a different thing. It does not maintain vast gulags full of tortured politicos. It doesn't need to. Instead, it employs technology and the THREAT of state violence to keep dissidents - very few of them are ever actually arrested or publicly sanctioned - almost completely cowed. The meme is: we know you don't want to be afraid, cross us, and we will make sure you live in a constant state of low level fear, but don't - leave us alone, and you can happily enjoy the fruitful benefits of our diverse, progressive and physically "free" non-democracy, free of fear. So choose not to be afraid. Instead, just choose to be quiet and mind your own business. Just choose correctly. Or else.

To me, China these days sort of resembles what life for whites in Apartheid South Africa was like. Stay within the rules, and you can pretend you live in a progressive, modern society. Push against those rules, and the truncheons and jackboots come out.

It's a powerful if extremely, monstrously Orwellian way of running a country. And, sadly, it works for them.

It also means that there is less distance than I for one would like to admit between our own society and their's. Their system is A LOT worse than our own. There is nothing about the American system that resembles the Chinese one. We are democratic, an elective republic. They are not. But the differences in day-to-day political life beween the US and China are questions of degree, not moral absolutes like the difference between us and the Islamic theocracies of today or the Soviet bloc autocracies of the last centuries. Only a slippery slope separates us. And sometimes I fear we're starting to slide down that slope just a little bit...

I was in Spain in the era of Franco (1973), and in Portugal in the same era. THAT was a police state. If you asked people about thier government, they would look at you with abject terror, thinking that you might be trying to trick them into revealing their true feelings.

But talk to a Chinese citizen about their government and you will get a whole hour long dissertation about corruption or bad choices and they will lay on the line all their disagreements and dissents and also tell you all the things they like about China. And they will do this in the most public places. There is absolutely no fear of being watched or persecuted for disagreeing with the government. What the government does NOT allow is dissent with the intention of creating riots.

But if we create riots (which we have had a lot of in the USA) they are also answered with heavy suppression. Look at the LA riots. Look at the riots against the Viet Nam war. No government wants riots. In fact, just put together a public march and you will have police there in droves in case it turns into a riot. At which point, the riot will be put down quickly. And rightfully so. Riots do not necessarily improve conditions. The French Revolution was followed by mass murder and horrendous crimes against citizens.

There is very heavy debate within the Chinese government Political establishment with heavily dissenting views. One senior government official will want more democracy and freedom, another will argue against it. But if one of them starts to promote riots, no matter how senior they are, they are also removed. In fact, anyone pushing too heavily one way or the other is targeted. Look at the fact that Mao's own wife ended up in prison after he died for pushing to move China back towards the earlier days.

China is an enormous country that had centuries of civil war, warlords, fracturing and then reuniting. It has a tremendously long history. The US has a few hundred years. China expands economically at an unprecedented rate. Its citizens look forward to immense economical growth. We cannot say the same thing.

Yes, China has some large obstacles to overcome, and yes, China needs to improve in many areas, but at least they are improving whereas we are going backwards. And one of the reasons we go backwards is we are complacent!

We are so complacent in fact, that we watch as our freedoms erode and say nothing. And that is because we have bought the line that America is perfect and the "best" country in the world to live in and so it can do no wrong. Well, it can and it does do a lot wrong!

I agree with you that China is not totalitarian. But it is authoritarian. And surveillance is pretty ubiquitous. Ever try surfing the web when you were there? For most Chinese, the surveillance and the threat of state violence isn't real. They stay within the rules. They do get involved in politics, and have civic opinions. They just know how far they can go with them. It is, however, absolutely understood that if you break those rules, then the jackboots WILL come out.

It's a different type of oppresson than Franco or the Stasi. But it IS oppressive. I was working in industry but I had a part-time lecturer's appointment at a Beijing university when I was there. I was aware in more than one case that students who expressed dissident opinions in their internet postings and blogs could expect to get a call from either the dean's office or one of the student cadres. They'd be called in for "counseling"! Slap on the wrist.. no real threat, in the first instance, but the students pretty clearly knew what it meant. They were being politely told that they were approaching the limits on what would be tolerate. Push further, and bad things COULD happen.. Job placement opportunitie might be effected. Family members' career prospects? The possilbity of party membership? All were subtly indicated to be at risk if you persist in your discontent. The threat probably won't amount to anyhing, but it might.

I think the Apartheid South African parallel is a valid one, from a white perspective (obviously, if you were black, the truncheons were always real and in your face). The threat was not what the goverment did to you or people you know. It was what they made sure you knew MIGHT happen to you based on what is happening to strangers (possibly strangers made up by the propaganda department). There is no Hilter Youth. No more chanting Red Guards. No overt threat of a torture chamber. It's much more subtle but no less sinister, but in a much less in-your-face way than what we normally think of as a police state. It's fascism with a smile.

This is why one gets a chill up one's spine when you read things like what they're doing now witht he emails in Wisconsin and Michigan. Those tactics are well down the slippery slope, at the base of which you will find China.

I lived in South Africa. There is absolutely no comparison between the brutality the SA Police showed the blacks and what happens in China.

My father exposed the use of blacks as slave labour through Psychiatric hospitals. We were followed for months by the SA police for that. The apartheid regime was brutal with the blacks and racist sentiment was taught vigorously in the schools.

China is emerging from a country where dissent would bring you death to a country where dissent is allowed. It is progress. China is emerging from a country where you had no right to travel outside the country to one where you can (mostly) freely travel. It is progress. The point is, CHina moves forward and we move backwards.

Giving absolute freedom immediately to someone that has never experienced it is not necessarily a good idea. Progressive reform is far preferential to overnight dramatic change. That leads to anarchy as in that situation, nobody knows the rules or the boundaries and chaos ensues. No progress gets made, only destruction occurs.

Look at South Africa today. While some blacks have made tremendous progress, a vaste number live in hovels and endure enormous increases in crime and poverty. Houses are barricaded and the President believes that he can have sex with prostitutes that have AIDs and then a shower will prevent him contracting it. Not a good scene.

Okay people.... this kind of talk is scary. When the band 'Coldplay' released their hit album 'Parachutes' it was soon banned in -yep you guessed it- China. Why was it banned you ask??? They had a song on the album titled 'Spies'. Coldplay may not be the most loved rock band the planet has ever heard, but they hit the nail square on the head in that song. Feel free to listen to it. They told the truth so well that the Chinese govt. couldn't risk it's own citizens hearing and embracing the message contained therein. I don't care how pretty the architecture is or how great the food is or how well the people around me fake their happiness I do not ever want to live in the kind of '1984' society that China currently is. Period. I truly feel for the innocent people that were born there.

So Roy is easily fooled. He must be Chinese.

Yeah, that's the ticket, yeah.

Right.

Actually AKRandy, I am probably a lot more to the right than to the left. I hate over-taxation and the way democrats feel they have the right to take my hard earned money and give it to ignorant people that don't want to work like you.

Nobody needs to shut you up though, because you are a benefit to the democrats. They can point to you and say "See? He is a Republican. Do you want to be one of those?" and they all run over to the democrats side. You are "proof" that the Republicans are not only uneducated, but biased, fail to look, and overall ignorant. And that is a shame, because there are a lot of smart, intelligent, thoughtful Republicans. So do your party a favour and try not to talk too much.

Didn't Nixon started it all first ?

one day a Chinese made w-88 will form a mushroom cloud over your town that resembles Bill Clintons face..

hmm... sounds like Guantanamo Bay...holding people without charge for over 7 years... some of them the government even admits are not suspects any longer...

If American's are so concerned about individual liberties, I think it is time they start demanding their own individual liberties back which are slowly being eroded away as we speak. While China gains more individual freedoms every year, our government strips ours away... funny thing that!

Maybe it's just my imagination, but China seems to be getting worse lately.

Write letters through Amnesty Int'l. It's the best thing to do with this man and the others they've detained lately. It could stop them from getting mistreated or tortured by showing them that the world is watching. I know it sounds lame, but it really does work. It might not free them, but it could help them.

You said 24 hours. Did you mean 24 years ?

Err... Nixon was an American President... so how does that make the USA better? McCarthy was also American and his witchhunt had the full blessing of the entire US government.

well.. nobody in the US is quite as bad as the Chinese to be fair, but I should point out that the Wiscosin and Michigan State GOPs are now going after the personal emails of eminent academics in order to intimidate them away from criticism of their party. Cronin is a case in point, as are reportedly dozens of less high profile cases over the last couple of weeks. I'm not saying that anywhere in the US is as bad as a country like China, but fascism is always a long, slippery slope, and certain people in this country seem to enjoy mudsliding just a little too much for my comfort.

Factually, nobody really likes being criticized. Some people take to it even less than others and it does not matter their "party affiliation". Honestly, the degree that the US fractures into the two parties is detrimental to her progress. The two views are so influenced by extremists in each party that we get nothing done.

If someone considers themselves a Democrat, then everything the GOP does is evil, even when it is good. And if someone considers themselves a Republican, then everything those "commie leftists" do is wrong. Preposterous! So we get nowhere and make no progress.

The real question I guess is why Americans have such a hard time looking at all the different views and seeing which view creates the most progress towards a more ideal scene. There is no such thing as absolutes in this universe, no absolute white or absolute black, only shades of grey along the way. The question is, is it more survival than contra-survival for all (and that includes other living creatures) or is it less survival (destructive). If it moves more towards survival than destruction, then it is good. If it moves more towards destruction than survival, it is bad. But everything that aides survival also causes some destruction. Eating an apple gives you survival, but it destoys the apple... but hey... then the seeds have a chance to spread! So eating an apple can be a good thing.

Judge a country by it's forward or backward progress, and when you do that, the Chinese government looks pretty good. Compared to the Russians, it is marvelous!

Who's clown are you, Gloria?

Fox, People's Daily, Pravda.. same horse, different jockey. I don't think the Chinese would hire any of us to shill for them here, even for $0.50 a post. In which case, do you think Murdoch will pay us $0.50 instead? I'm sure a lot of us would pretend to like Glenn Beck for $0.50 a post.

Gloria. You are just spouting off gibberish. I think you might be hired by the Chinese to make Americans look bad. On what facts are you basing your comments?

I freely admit I'm a Democratic clown (despite the fact that I have conservative views on some issues like illegal immigration). I shill for them without ever having to be paid for it ;). I also shill for California 'cause we're simply awesome!

Haha! Hopefully you get your budget in order!

I am for progress towards liberty, not progress towards anarchy or progress towards fear or progress towards totalitarianism.

I am for progressive progress, not violent overthrow. I root for someone trying to improve conditions for the good of all, not someone trying to tear people down. I am for rewarding production, not penalizing it.

like i said Roy just a tad naive are we and you have no idea what i'm talking about.work for the Chinese Government. here's my answer to that. yeah of course i do.like i said naive!

i and others have dealt with these toads in the past, in articles written about the illustrious Chinese Government and their antics, on MSNBC. they call it the 50cent club..

Frankly Gloria, considering your illiteracy, I highly doubt you worked for anyone in any journalistic capacity.

Frankly Roy considering your comprehension of anything, i highly doubt if you work at all.Get a life Roy, you're wasting your time with all your blah blah blah.in other words Roy you don't know what the hell you're blabbing about.

i here the Chinese Government are looking for Clowns for the their circus, you really shoud consider joining.

Wow. Big word for you Gloria! And you even spelled comprehension correctly. Now once you learn punctuation and capitilization you can work on diffferentiating between "here" and "hear". Just think, you would be able to correctly write "I hear the Chinese Government..." instead of "I here the Chinese Government..." Maybe, then, people might take you seriously.

Wow Roy you can actually read big words. oh and i suppose you never make a type O eh Roy?well not in Roy's world anyway.

your psychiatrist called he's also a professor.he needs you for a class in show and tell.now run along Roy you don't want to be late for show and tell.like isaid get a life Roy, that's a start.

Now, now, kids. No hair pulling, please.

okay okay if Roy knocks it off, so will I.

Gloria: "typo" is an abbreviation (that is where, instead of typing the whole word, we type a smaller amount of the word and people read it as the whole word) for the words "typographical error".

Typographical means: Relating to or occuring or used in typography. Typography means: The art or technique of printing with moving type (comes from a typewriter - the type moved as you typed it).

So a typographical error is where you mistyped a word or letter that you intended to type correctly. Which is not the same thing as when you just did not know what the word is. That is referred to as a "spelling error".

And, yes, Gloria, I DO make typographical errors, and also occasionally spelling errors. But not as frequently as you do.

Now, you started the insults Gloria, not me. I am just responding in kind.

While I admire the fact that you have opinions and want to express them, and while I admire the fact that you obviously try to stay abreast of what is going on in the world, I do not admire your style of knocking everything without really understanding it. I think you should get out of the USA for a while and go and visit some of these countries that you protest about. Actually, America would be far more respected and admired if all Americans got out there and spoke to and tried to understand other nations and people.

Well Excuuuuuuuuuuse Me! I started with the insults?Wrong on that one Roy!Whose Clown are you?Remember that one Roy?that's the stupid comment that started this war.

care to defend yourself Roy old boy?

This cannot be paid for at a theater!

well enjoy the show!sorry i just couldn't resist, ILMAO

My pleasure. Thanks.

your Welcome!

No Gloria. I did say that first. Albeit that your earlier comment calling anyone that defended China a clown directly reflects on me, which is what raised my ire.

Frankly, I am tired of the fact that so many Americans so glibly believe anything that the press prints or wants them to think. I just wish Americans today were as independently thinking as their forefathers were.

Seems the whole "America is great and everyone else sucks" line that we are fed is so quickly purchased and swallowed down these days.

Net result - we are not well respected in the world and we deserve that!

we should of never hooked with China in the first place. Big Mistake.as far as independent thinking let me tell you, i'm about as an independent thinker as you can get. i don't put up with crap.China deals out too much crap, especially to their own people, and their human rights. human life means zero over there.it means absolutely nothing to that corrupt government.since the United States is conjoined to these devils i'm going to speak out against human rights abuse until things over there start changing for the better. that means for it's people.

if we've lost respect it's because we played a dangerous game hooking up with a government like that.they are not well respected either.they use fear to keep their people line and that's no way for any human being to live.

as far as calling anyone a clown who defends that country, that's exactly what they are, or blind as bat, not seeing all bad that their corrupt government spews out.the leader alone Hu Jintao is responsible for 89,000 deaths of innocent people alone.i call that despicable, i have zero respect for a murderer like that, and here's the word again Clown.i'd like to see him behind bars instead of this artist.

I'd ask where you got that number from, but what would be the point?

Don't Bother then!you have a computer look it up.

I just did. You ARE funny Gloria. The only mention I could find of 89,000 seems to be an estimate of the average number of people who die in traffic accidents in China each year. By the way, the comparable number in the US is 32,000.. and we have 1/4th the population. By your standard, you kill 30% more people per capita than they do. Of course, your standard, if that's what it is, is utter nonsense. Hilarious, but nonsense.

*continues munching on popcorn*

This is great!

I wonder where trolls go to school, because they all seem to have the same type of bad grammar and writing issues

CaliforniaFirst

I freely admit I'm a Democratic clown (despite the fact that I have conservative views on some issues like illegal immigration).

Right there with you! I'm a Cali resident and I cannot stand the incredible amounts of pandering our politicians aim at the illegals. The billions that our state spends on social services, subsidized housing and welfare for their anchor children is several billion a year...that doesn't even include schooling and ER!

However, I don't really identify with either party. I'm fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I want government out of my pockets and out of my bedroom. The only exceptions are to invest in ventures that improve the public good (infrastructure, science, education, R&D, etc.)

I want government regulating my markets and breaking apart monopolies (grumbles at Comcast, AT&T, Verizon, Monsanto, Tyson, etc.) and I want an end to prohibition, it didn't work with alcohol, and it isn't working with harder drugs. Lastly, I want marriage available for any configuration of consenting adults, or government out of the marriage business entirely.

Maybe I'm part of the Bull Moose party :P

California you are clueless aren't you?who said anything about traffic accidents, in China?

Wow Gloria! It would be interesting if you were talking some sense, but you just spout off a bunch of nonsense! Read what California said, then you will see why he is talking about traffic accidents.

And seriously... one is supposed to end a sentence with a period. That is the little dot that you see following this sentence. ;) People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

happy ex pat you're babbling again too much of that booze you were talking about.you know blah blah blah!go sleep it off. you absolutely make no sense.

Thank you for your input, Roy. It is good to receive experienced POVs, and I do agree we have more to fear than fear itself in this Great Nation.