You?!

This just shows that Chinese officials can be just as bureaucratic and silly as our own. But it does show that there is much more freedom of speech that in years past. You can actually call a silly edict silly without going to prison.

There was a time not so long ago when the universal language was German because it was the most adaptable language in terms of being able to make very precise statements as would be required in a world of science. But that was supplanted by English after WWII. But English is here to stay in terms of a common lingua franka for the world. But I also think that for other cultures it would be a shame to lose any richness or cultural identity in order to ease overseas communications.

n.b. There are more people in China who are "extremely fluent" (equivalent to a college rising sophomore) in English than the population of the United States. So, it is no longer true that the U.S. is the largest English-speaking country in the world.

Chris--You clearly don't live in China. I have lived here for 5 years, and there are NOT that many people who speak fluent English. The 300 million number includes mainly people who speak the rawest form of Chinglish. Don't be so naive. It's not a fantasy land here.

I agree with Randy. I also lived in China for almost 5 years, in Hangzhou and Guangzhou. And spent a lot of time in Beijing and Shanghai. I can confirm that there is no way there are 300 million fluent English speakers.

shhh Womens Mei Guo Nan Zi Zhi Ye Lan Qiu Lian Sai is coming on soon!!!

Comment made above: "This just shows that Chinese officials can be just as bureaucratic and silly as our own." Actually they have the balls to state that the official language in China is Chinese. Our bureaucrats don't have the BALLS to declare ENGLISH as our official language, for fear of sighting those living in our country (many illegally, I might add) that don't want to learn the language. Instead we publish most things in multiple languages to accommodate. So much for immigrants willingness to assimilate!!

Our bureaucrats don't have the BALLS to declare ENGLISH as our official language, for fear of sighting those living in our country (many illegally, I might add) that don't want to learn the language.

Ahhh. Pobrecito chaparro amargo! You could always move to China.

Chris your comment about there being more English speaking Chinese than there are English speaking Americans is wrong. Were did you get that information? I deal with several Chinese businesses on a daily basis and some of the best English speaking Chinese customers I deal with still have the worst English skills.

Their speaking skill are a little better than their writing skills, though. But I have been told that English is the hardest language to learn.

How can you possibly know whether or not there are 300 million Chinese that can speak fluent English. Just because you lived there for five years only means that you didn't come across very many within your little circle of influence. How long ago was your residence there in China? How do you figure that the 150 people you came in contact with is an accurate representation for the entire nation of China. How about Hong Kong, I'm sure there are a large number of residences there that speak English.

With the increase in volume in world trade from China, you can sure bet there is a desire and demand for English speaking Chinese to deal with overseas accounts. Since English is the Recognized International Language for Business.

I'm glad China has taken the steps they have in controlling their national language. The Philippines for example have a dialect Tagolog, that has ben diluted by Spanish and English and is no longer a pure language.

Robert Karp, your reply is ridiculous. At the worst, living in China would give you a statistical sampling of English speakers in China.

From my own limited experience in China, I can say that there definitely ARE people who can converse in English. Go to any University in China and you can find an gathering of students called an "English Corner" that usually gathers one night a week to practice speaking English. At the same time, I did not meet a single person outside the University environment (other than the guide we hired to take us on a field trip) who could converse in English.

English is typically taught to most students for many years, but how well well do you think your high school Spanish would serve you if you were dropped into the middle of Mexico tomorrow?

Leprechaun1230
Our bureaucrats don't have the BALLS to declare ENGLISH as our official language, for fear of sighting those living in our country (many illegally, I might add) that don't want to learn the language. Instead we publish most things in multiple languages to accommodate. So much for immigrants willingness to assimilate!!

As much as I agree with you, I don't think it's necessary that we require that these illegals learn the English language. The ones that want to be successful and rise out of poverty will be self-selecting, just like the ones that wish to stagnate and raise generations of housekeepers, landscapers, etc.

Anyone who wants to be successful needs to learn the language of the land. English doesn't have to be the "official" language of the US to be official by default. 90% of the people here need to speak English to do business, if you can't speak English, you can't do business with most US business people.

My family, like most, came here with nothing, but they valued education and made sure that their children learned the language and went to school, always instilling the need that they must make life better for their children than it was for them and requiring that their kids follow the same mode when it comes to raising their own children.

I guarantee that 99% of the immigrants that come to the US, legal or otherwise, will need to follow that trend if they want to be anything more than the paupers they were when they arrived.

Hey Leprechaun1230, while I agree with your sentiment to a point (I wish we would declare American English as our official language), I more agree with Vielmann: If you don't like it, move.

This article isn't about China declaring Chinese as their national language. It's about them being power-hungry and dis-allowing other languages from being used even when there is no Chinese equivelant of the word. Do you want our gov't having that much control over us?

If I were dropped in Mexico I would be looking for a way to sneak back in to the states because I have zero inclination on to understand Spanish or participate in that culture, except for maybe 5 hour breaks.

Sounds like the Chinese English skills in China are about as good as the Chinese driving skills here.

bspurloc

shhh Womens Mei Guo Nan Zi Zhi Ye Lan Qiu Lian Sai is coming on soon!!!

Now THAT is funny!!

:-)

English is so endemic precisely because it has assimilated so many words from other languages, especially the most ironic word of all from Chinese: Yankee! So, if the Chinese want to see how maintaining the purity of a language can be successful, maybe they should ask the French. They've been trying to do so for decades, but it is not a "fait accompli."

That's nice Ben, however from my experience, and I've been around the world twice. That includes Philippines, Japan, Mexico, Spain, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Pakistan, Somalia, Kenya, Bahrain, Korea. Those are the Non-English speaking countries that I've been too. Not to mention that I have communication with people from China and Russia. In Russia by the time a person completes their education have completed 8 years of English. But my point is that in all those countries, I have never had a problem getting around on English alone. Even the run of the mill peasants speak English.

How many Chinese reside in Cities that have ports?

Just saying "Well I resided in China for 5 years and I can tell you there isn't 300 million Chinese that can speak English because I ddn't see them." Doesn't cut it. Produce a reference to back it up Because the normal routine contact for an individual is about 150 people. Anything outside 150 people and you really don''t know nothing about them.

Again How many people reside in Hong Kong alone because I can bet they have a large population of English speaking Chinese, since England possessed that area for years. 150 people is hardly a reasonable pool out of a couple billion Chinese.

The article says:

Authorities’ obsession with power is at the root of the decision to ban English, one commentator says.

“(The government) is so proud now as China’s economy is booming,” Zhu Xueqin, a history professor at Shanghai University, told BBC News in an interview. “They think foreigners ought to learn from us, we do not need to learn from them anymore.”

====================================================

Does this mean that China is going to stop stealing patents, technology and copyrighted material from the USA and Europe? If it does, I suspect that China will suffer a major economic decline. It seems that China hasn't learned how to mix concrete for school buildings so that they don't fall down in an earthquake or flood.

The French Academy (guardans of the French Language) tried unsuccessfully to outlaw English in newspapers and streetsigns many years ago. The beauty of a living language- any living language, is that it will shamelessly absorb foreign words as it enriches itself. When that stops happening, that language dies.

In the 19th Century, India gave us jodhpurs, tiffin, Blighty (Hindi word for England), doolally (a own in India - location of a military mental hospital). 20th Century Japan has given us Sushi, Karaoke and probably many more.

Long may English continue to take words from the other languages. They don't lose, but English gains each time. Poor old China for not seeing this.

Robert Karp, nice try on your nice try. Let's recap the discussion

Chris-537131 made an unsubstantiated comment that there were more Chinese who were "extremely fluent" in English than the population of the US.

Randy in Shanghai (who probably lived in Shanghai, China's largest city, an important international trading hub, and a port city) replied that Chris's statistic (whatever its origin) was not based on spoken English in his 5 years of experience.

Jim in Auburn replied that in his experience (in various regions of China, including Shanghai and its capital Beijing) corroborated Randy's.

Debbie-1144654, who deals with native Chinese speakers on a daily basis agreed.

Robert Karp replied with "How can you possibly know whether or not there are 300 million Chinese that can speak fluent English. Just because you lived there for five years only means that you didn't come across very many within your little circle of influence."

Ben Birdsey replied with "At the worst, living in China would give you a statistical sampling of English speakers in China." and "how well well do you think your high school Spanish would serve you if you were dropped into the middle of Mexico tomorrow?"

If you really wanted something that "cut it" you would have brought out some evidence that backed up Chris-537131's claim. But let's go with what we have so far:

1. We have 10 years of experience by people who were lived in the region of interest.
2. both people have lived a portion of that time in China's large cities (Shanghai, being China's largest city, and a center of international trade).
3. Jim in Auburn lived in several places which span many geographical regions of the country, in both Cantonese and Mandarin speaking areas.
4. Jim and Randy were probably in China for work, rather than vacation so I imagine that they MET more that 150*2 people in their 10 man years. You do not have to be bosom buddies with someone to determine their language proficiency.
5. I myself was in a university setting for 8 weeks, where every single student had the 8 years of English training, and very many of the 100s of students that I met could not speak English fluently. This goes back to the problem of language retention that I was trying to touch on in my previous post.

On the other hand, we have some unknown person who makes an unsubstantiated claim, and a world traveler who took two whole round the world trips.... seemingly to every country but China.

-----------------------

If I offended you by using the phrase "patently ridiculous", I am not sorry, but I will say that that was only aimed at your statement "How can you possibly know whether or not there are 300 million Chinese that can speak fluent English."

Given the claims of Jim, it is likely that he has a sufficient basis for a statistical sampling, especially since he has significant experience in areas that you claim should have a high concentration of English speakers.

At the same time, none of us are probably talking about the actual claim, since it has to do with the existence of the English education. Rather, the meat of the discussion has centered around the demonstrated ability to use that education.

-----------------------

As for how many people live in Hong Kong, it has a population of 7 million people, so that still leaves 297 million people who did not live in a region that was politically controlled by the English that are unaccounted for.

537131

Just like Lingua Franca above, I immediately thought of the Academie Francaise (sorry, I am unschooled in how to how to put in accent marks with a computer) trying to legislate limited usage of English (i.e., one must use "ordinateur" not "computer") and pronunciation (d'accord, you can use the word "pipeline" but it must be pronounced "peepleen"!). Just silly. Even more silly when you consider the how many people there are in China, Putonghua (Mandarin) is in no danger of being overwhelmed, as has happened to Gaelic and so many other languages of smaller communities in the past...

What this does show, however, is the insecurity of the Chinese authorities, to feel threatened by English!! Evidence once again of the stupidity of the bureaucratic mind.

@Ben Birsdsey -

Add 5 more years (and counting) of experience to the "there is no way 300 million people in China speak fluent English" camp.

During my 5 years here I've run my own English training center, done contracted language training for companies such as BMW and IBM, and taught English full-time at one of China's "Top 100 Universities." I average 300-500 university students per semester, and their majors/ages runs the gambit from English majors, 2+2 Finance and Accounting (with the final 2 years to be done in England), Economics majors, International Business Majors, Korean Majors (majoring in the Korean Language), and first year freshman to second year graduate students. Through my training center I meet people from all walks of life, including businesspeople, teachers, and those planning to emigrate.

At best, there are 300 million English students here (I've also heard 400 million). But 99% of my students here speak at an elementary school level at best. Now reading...that's another story.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays from a very frozen 东北.

It's also probably worth noting that the desire to "protect Chinese" is a a result of the massive influx of English words into the Chinese language. I'm not talking about transliterations (words like 'vitamin', which in Chinese becomes 'wei ta ming'), I'm talking about ideas that are directly translated. An example would be 'signal light' (which in Chinese is 'xinhao deng'). The word makes sense when you know that 'xinhao' means signal, and 'deng' means light. However, it comes directly from English because you cannot use "signal" as a verb in Chinese (as in "The light signaled that it was clear to cross.") Another example is "bottleneck" (in Chinese 'ping jing'), which litterally means "bottle" "neck." Even that most Chinese of words, Socialism, is an example (in Chinese 'shi hui zhu yi', where 'shi hui' means society, and 'zhu yi' is "ism." Now of course China isn't socialist in anything but name, but that's another discussion...

There are so many words like this in Chinese now that I come across them in my classes every day. When I personally estimated the number of words like this at 1/4 of the commonly used Chinese vocabulary two of my Chinese friends (both English teachers) told me that 1/3 is probably a better estimate. Either way, the influx of ideas via language into China is astounding.

I once read that the only reason Mao opted for simplified characters (简体字) over an alphabet-based approach to language reform was because Stalin urged him to keep characters to preserve the "Chinese essense." Either way, English is here. At some point in the future students are going to study the massive changes that are slowly eliminating the world's oldest culture...go Globalism!

Cheers

"Womens Mei Guo Nan Zi Zhi Ye Lan Qiu Lian Sai" ?

Probably only in China, as Nan Zi = Men's.

Ben, I spoke to a native resident of China last night. He tries to communicate as best he can and often uses a translator to talk to me. He says that Hong Kong has a large population of English speaking Chinese because that region was leased to Brittain for so long. He also told me that no he doesn't think 300 million Chinese are fluent in English.

Bottom Line:

I agree with you.

Robert,

I have interacted with literally thousands of Chinese. Factory workers, supervisors, owners, government workers, government officials, shipping agents, drivers, hotel clerks, waitresses, police, immigration, and many others. I have done this in the most populous cities in China. The most western cities in China. The cities that integrate with the western world the most. The inner part of China does not deal with western countries so much. And anyone that can speak decent English would be migrating to the coast to get a job at a factory, or hotel, or some other firm where English is needed.

And for you to say that 1/4 of Chinese citizens are fluent in English is just nuts. It is not even 1:10 among the people I have worked with. Out of a factory with 1000 employees, there are usually only 3-4 people that could be considered "good" English. My wife is Chinese and she is fluent. She would have to sit in meeting with me when I went to the factories, because their "fluent" sales people and translators would get things wrong and she would have to correct them.

We would have dinner with high government officials at least a few times a month. And out of 10 people of so at the table, we would be lucky if one could speak English to a level that I could understand.

Sure, if you only stay in top hotels, and are a tourist, you will see many more English speakers. But the rest the the country is the majority, and they do not speak English.

As for me, I have lived in 5 different countries, and traveled for business and pleasure to 30+ countries, usually multiple times to every country.

As for Asia, Per capita, I found way more English speakers in Thailand compared to China. But then my view on Thailand may be skewed, because I usually only dealt with upper class people there. People that would send their children abroad for school.

Wouldn't that be "Engrish wolds"? Sort of along the same lines as "Flied Lice"! lol

You would think that was just a stereotype. But it is true in China and throughout Asia. I have met so many people that swap the r's and l's in Asia.

Flied lice!

I'm just going to reave_this_hele hehehe...

I think the edict bans single English words too. I haven't heard about whole sentence in English in a Chinese article. Just wait and see. But how about all the Japanese terms they use in Chinese articles in China ? 30 years ago, that was non-existent. Now it is all over the place. Like Bleeding Sale....

ROR!

Gundeck, that truly made me laugh out loud. Thanks for that

I, too, was struck by the notion of "purity". The first thing in my mind after reading that was Aryan Racial Purity. It will be some time before the old guard in China gives up its belief that China can be a world leader and remain a somewhat isolated society. In the long term the two goals are incompatible.

Well said. Even the French who have made a stink about English slipping into their Lexicon have not been able to stop the progress of foreign influence. But that has been the truth for thousands of years. English itself, originally more German than anything, took a great deal from the French and other dialects to become what it is today, and it's still changing.

I always liked this quote:

"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
- James D. Nicoll

I saw we bomb these @!$%#s with explosive dictionaries.

Exodite Dragon
I saw we bomb these @!$%#s with explosive dictionaries.

Reafrets would be enough!

Ronery bastages ;)

Love to see what they do with the DNA references ... That's a very long phrase in Chinese.

Sure. A total dream. They've been around a lot longer than we are. I am sure they'll be around when we're NOT. We as a country is too short sighted and does not think long term. All the talk of our system is better is an illusion and a vail disguised way of saying "We are superior". We should find a mirror and take a good look at ourselves.

They are very problematic at times (an oppressive government, terrible environmental record, etc.) but they are also a great nation with a rich history. They were around for 1500 years before the United States was even an idea. Until the Renaissance, they were hundreds of years ahead of Europe in technology and culture. I don't like that the Chinese have an abusive Communist government. But 99 percent of Chinese are just trying to get their own piece of the pie (their per capita income is still ~1/5 that of an American). I don't know how serious you are, but to wish away 1/5 of the human race seems crazy to me.

They actually make less than 1/10th of our per capita income. And just because they've been here a long time, does not mean they are great. Everything that is good about contemporary China has been copied or stolen from the West. Everything bad is a holdover from Mao's foolishness and the current government's self-serving arrogance and ignorance. Come here and live for several years before making grand pronouncements about China, okay?

Again, as a person that lived in China for 5 years, I can confirm what Randy is saying.

But mt-512899, If China went away, who on Earth would pay our bills? Don't the Chinese support us financially?

Randy: I believe it was Francis Bacon who said "The Printing Press, The Compass, Gunpowder and Paper are what make Western Civilization great!" (Paraphrased). Notice how those are all Chinese inventions.

It doesn't matter who borrowed from who, the present and future are all that matters. Past is prologue, as they say.

easyrider1965

Sure. A total dream. They've been around a lot longer than we are. I am sure they'll be around when we're NOT. We as a country is too short sighted and does not think long term. All the talk of our system is better is an illusion and a vail disguised way of saying "We are superior". We should find a mirror and take a good look at ourselves.

Not true! They had a major internal uprising and massive political shift to an entirely new culture and government back during and shortly after WWII during "The Longest March". Their current government is a direct ancestor to Mao's.

You are mistaking the earlier Chinese dynasties, which were overthrown to make way for Mao's version of Communism. Mao in fact was the one to end a 2,000 year long running regime.

If you are going with that school of thought, then the US has been around since the 13 Colonies were established by the British in the 1600's. Or better yet, how about we start with the Native American's that were overthrown and subjugated by the British, the Native Americans had settled this land during the Neolithic, so just pick your timeframe :)

MT, I am sure that is what many Chinese (and Arabs!) say about the US!!

"Their current government is a direct ancestor to Mao's."

That's hard to do. Did they invent the time machine already ?

So is the "Republic" in PRC. They should change the name of the nation.

As whether this edict will be effective, don't forget that France do not have an authoritative dictatorship, and therefore much less capable. During the Cultural Revolution, China manage to destroy most of the Confucian institutions and literature, and all of the ethics and moral.

That is not the same thing.... Banning a word in English that had a foreign origin would be the same.... English as the "official" language of the USA is totally appropriate...

How is it appropriate to have English as the official language of the U.S.? The U.S's history has been based off of the many groups of immigrants that have moved here- and to say English, one of the many languages spoken by U.S. citizens, should be the official language is ludicrous

Having English as official language is not ridiculous. Most countries have official language(s). English is an official language of India, just for example. Official language is just saying that the government will communicate with that language, but not restricted to that language. Official language laws usually do not forbid using of other languages either, except in some unnamed countries. Many countries have more than one official language too.

And I think English is actually an official language of US, but US government do communicate with its citizens in other languages too.

You mean the 300 million fluent English speakers who put "Please Do Not Rely On Safety" in Olympic Park?

Yeah, they really do have the biggest number of English speakers in China.

Good point, but since that was a pet project of Chairman Mao, it seems like there is little chance of it ever going back. It might even be "counter revolutionary", LOL

Because we didn't back Ho Chi Minh when he came to us for support after WWII.... IF we had, Vietnam would have never happened...

Although off topic.... finally someone who actually understand the history of how Vietnam became Communism.

That's pretty much the case in Cuba as well. Not sure, but I'd venture to say there are others. The problem with Vietnam was the French were still controlling Vietnam. If we stepped in at that point, we'd be pissing them off too.

Sobo-2328648 wrote: "NATION FOR SALE: Bids accepted at the doors of the United States Chamber of Commerce."

I love it. We'll just keep letting China import and kill our markets but accept they will not use any words to communicate with us. Why should they? The big O does whatever they want anyway. They can use hand signals.

So, how will they get all those instructions written for the items we import from them? What will they replace the UL marking with? Could/would we then be able to trust that it is a UL approved device or fear it to be a knock-off made in China? What about all the Chinese Presses printing our books? I do not see this really working out well.

PS: I am not a fan of purchasing China-Made goods but it is getting increasingly unavoidable here in the US. My Vocational high school, which I graduated from 20+ years ago, no longer teaches students the crafts needed to produce good in this country like Machine Shop Technologies because we have no use for it here. the jobs all went to China and elsewhere.

"Freedom Fries" and "Freedom toast" Was not the same! That was done as a protest to Frances obstruction in the UN.... Get your fact straight...

C'est la guerre!! Culture wars!

well. I guess it could be worse. They could try to mandate that WE speak Chinese too.. .

Speaking about linguistic chauvenism, you don't have to go as far as China or France to find ridiculous policies. Quebec's about as bad as it gets. On Dec 9, they instituted a policy whereby their main occupational safety complaint line (basically OSHA line) was told that it can only speak French to callers who are calling from outside their province. So if somebody called to say, "There's been a radiation leak and things are about to blow up! Help!" in English, they would reply to you with the following (Engilsh) script (and I'm not making this up.. ad verbatim this is the officlal directive): "I am required by the French Language Charter to conduct all communications with you in French, unless you are from outside Quebec." By the new ruels, you'd have to cross into the neighboring province of, say, Ontario just to report an emergency in Quebec using English! Activists want the same policy applied to their equivalent of 911 calls. It's already a crime there to post signs in English, among many many other restrictions.



Oh, I agree, CaliforniaFirst, Quebec is a riot! In France, the stop signs say "STOP" - even the froggies accept the international usage of that word. But no, the Quebeckers (oops, sorry, I should say the Quebecois - with an accent mark on the first e!) have to be more French than the French - their stop signs say ARRET (with an accent over the e).

Actually most famous people already have chinese names. They find Chinese characters that make a sound similar to their English name. My wife is Chinese and some times it takes me a little while to figure out who she is talking about, because it sounds imilar, but might have extra characters or sounds in the name. Also they give nicknames to people like Julia Roberts she is known as the "Big mouth beauty", I think Halle Berry is know as "Black pearl" or something like that.

When I was there, most people who were English students and English speakers also had westernized names. Some of them were very odd, like "Manchurian warrior," and the name "Helen" (from Helen of Troy, the famous beauty) was so common that you had to specify which Helen you were talking about...

....uh.... no it is not the same.....in America we go out of our way to print almost everything in Spanish, businesses now ask you to press a phone button to get English, ads and television cater to Hispanics, no one, unfortunately, is asking these Hispanics to learn English, which they should do because no one dragged them here to live in the USA, and like all good citizens, they should make it a priority to learn the language of the country in which they live......

Most American citizens have forgotten the mother tongues of their ancestors. English as the national language is one reason why the United States grew to be a great country. It is unified by language.

Non English speaking citizens will never be fully assimilated into America. That's the plain truth. My ancestors apparently learned that a long time ago.

As far as Hispanic citizens are concerned, even the Cisco Kid and Pancho learned English. How else could they have had a TV show that Americans could watch? Just joking.